Martin Short
Most posts I write get three comments. Women vs Short Guys: Dating’s Fiercest Battleground, my daring exploration of the dark world that is tiny dude daters, has received sixty-five. It’s been republished by at least five other outlets and been read by twice as many people as anything I’ve ever posted. Including the detective fiction starring my cat, Inspector Whiskerton, that went up briefly in the bleak hours following Valentine’s Day, 2010. So clearly, people are fascinated by the plight of single short guys, and I just had to revisit the topic.
Easily some of the craziest things you guys have said to me were a result of this article. Here’s ROSA, a woman who is, herself, short, and might therefore have some sympathy for similar men. Turns out, no.
I am sick and tired of short men approaching me thinking that because I’m a short girl, I like short guys. I HATE SHORT GUYS! Just because I’m short doesn’t mean I don’t prefer the tall, dark, and handsome guys like the rest of us women. I really wish all men shorter than 6’2″ should be rounded up and shot.
Rounded up and shot, folks. Rounded. Up. And. Shot. Which is a practical enough suggestion, but where would we find all the shoeboxes to bury them in? ROSA, however, was not finished.
Us women should hold dating sites accountable and demand that they add fraud protection to stop short men from lying about their height. ANY man under 6’1″ IS NOT a compatible match for me. Men who lie about their height or try to conceal their height with elevator [shoes] should be arrested for fraud!
Is Rosa insane? Of course she is. But nearly every women I’ve heard from agrees with her general assessment. Short guys aren’t just unappealing, they’re maddeningly unappealing. They’re like the Tea Party of the dating universe: it’s not that you dislike them, it’s that you can’t understand how they don’t dislike themselves. Like their size is somehow an insult. It’s all, frankly, a little disturbing. And it’s getting some short guys down. (Pun intended.) Here’s a tall guy so screwed up that he thinks he’s actually short…
As an average height guy, 5’11”, I can pretty much get away with dating most girls who insist on just being taller than them. What I can’t get over is my own Napoleon complex, because my dad is 6’3”, my brother 6’4”, my best friend 6’7” and 3/5 of my close friends over 6’3”. I am a short stack wherever I go, and it has warped my psyche.
“Told you I was taller than this chair!”
This is what we’ve become, people. A 5’11” guy with a Napolean complex. Do you know how pissed Napolean would be? People almost six feet tall bitching about their height? He’d smack this guy right in the face. After climbing up on a stool, of course. Or at least a couple of phone books. He continues…
I’m fit, not ugly, have a thick head of hair, and a good job, but my height insecurities make me only message girls 5’4” and shorter so that there is no way in heels they are taller than me.
Call it what you will, but I wouldn’t wish my future child to be anything less than 6’3”.
I will tell you something now that is not at all funny and is certainly not a joke. Short men have emailed me and talked about committing suicide. Because of their height. BECAUSE OF THEIR FUCKING HEIGHT. That is not cool, ladies. To feel disregarded because of something you have no power to change and did nothing to create, I’m sure that is all kinds of awful – and what bitter part of my heart remains goes out to these guys. But I shouldn’t just be speaking to the ladies, because we all do this. Men have their own checklist of traits that we will unfairly deem sacrosanct. As always seems to happen, men quickly turned on the larger ladies.
[Women] should be asked to list their weight… A woman’s height/weight ratio really does give a sense of her body type and degree of fitness (waist size would help too)…
Just because you played JV basketball in high school does not make you athletic and toned…
[For women] 30 pounds overweight seems to be the new “average” now…
A short stack
And that’s the stuff I didn’t delete immediately. You would be amazed at how many times the word “fatties” appears in the trashed comments of this blog. But it doesn’t stop there. I mentioned short men, and everyone else’s insecurities came calling. Tall men worrying they’re short, average breasted women worrying they’re small, people in wheelchairs worrying they’re weird, folks with abnormalities so rare they won’t even mention them online. And everybody feels bad about it. Why? Because someone sometime somewhere made it clear that they were a problem that need to be solved. Which brings me to my favorite of all the comments I received on Women vs. Short Guys. From that great sage, Anonymous:
Now I know why these people are 30 and still single.
We’re all fucked up. That’s why we’re Internet dating. Sure, we work too much, and sure we’re tired of meeting people in bars, and sure we’re searching for someone very particular – but let’s be honest, if we Internet daters were such prizes, chances are we wouldn’t be Internet dating to begin with, right? So why would we let other Internet daters, other members of this wackjob fraternity, tell us that we’re not enough? We’re too short or we’re too fat or we’re too willing to post stories about our cats solving supernatural crimes in turn of the century London, England? Guess what, chances are, they’re short too. Or they’re angry. Or they pee a little every time they sneeze. They’re other thirty-something daters — they’re fuck-ups too! An Internet dater tells you short? So what. They probably fart in their sleep. Or pick their teeth with business cards. Or ask their cleaning lady if it’s OK if they call her “Mother.” We’re all, as Anonymous said, 30 and single. So who the hell are we to talk shit?
Now get out there and meet somebody awesome.
And if you’re under six feet tall, have some decency and buy a good pair of lifts. You’re never gonna meet anyone looking like a freak.
For more hilarity and oddity, buy my new book Not a Match: My True Tales of Online Dating Disasters.
Available for your ereader on Amazon and iTunes. It’s cheap, and awesome! Please help support the site!
It's Not a Match.com 
I think all this anger would diminish a little if people would just stop fucking lying on their online dating profiles. If you’re not actually 5’9″, don’t say that you are, and if you’re not actually athletic, don’t say that you are. Do not wear hats that cover up a receding hairline in all pictures and do not take angle-shots of your face to make it look skinner. Do not claim to love camping if you actually mean you love Glamping, and do not say you’re open-minded if you actually think men are superior to women or that all guys are cheaters deep down inside.
Just.Tell.The.Goddamn.TRUTH
This seems like the hardest thing in the world for some people and I’m not sure why. I mean, the thing with online dating is that SOMEDAY you will meet in person, and all lies will be found out. And it will be awkward. So just be the opposite of all our politicians and tell the truth. Dear god.
Has it ever ocurred to you, that maybe they lie because it’s frigging impossible to ever meet anybody online when a guy’s height is 5’3 ? Not someday, not ever…
I agree roman, I think about lying about my height to weed out the shallow girls to be honest but it’s not the answer, make me as bad if not worse than they are. I do online dating so I get a lot of judgemental profiles I read.
And now look at it this way -we lie about height=we’re untrustworthy dirty little liars. We don’t lie about height =we get like 0 views=we’re undesirable.
With all due respect, most guys have difficulty getting views/responses online, regardless of their height.
Also, I’m unfamiliar with match, but it was not easy to see the height of an individual without visiting their profile on the sites I’m familiar with (okcupid/PoF). That means that women can only know the height of a dude if they go to his profile or he’s enough of a douche to mention how tall he is in one of his messages.
If match works similarly, then it would be highly unlikely for women to know how tall a dude is without viewing their profile. Whoops.
Actually all profiles list your height right on top of the profile. Some sites will list this info when you communicate with another member. Women (as well as most others) look at the profile and women only need to look at the top of the profile to see our hight we claim to be. If they are looking for a guy 5’11” and taller, they immediatly delete your response except the one woman who misread my hight as 5’11” when it clearly was printed as 5’1″ but she thought this must be a reprint since in her own words “no guys are that short.” Quite an experience! I was going to joke that I live in a secret base for UFO aliens and managed to escape but was pissed when she accused me of misrepresenting my height and asked “How do you people continue to reproduce?” she even said that our genes should have been eliminated thousands of years ago. I still cannot believe she would assume my height was a misprint and accuse me of lying when it was she who assumed I mean’t 5’11”, not 5’1″ because “men that short don’t exist”. I can’t help it if she was dumb enough to assume my height was a misprint since she didn’t know men as short as 5’1″ do exist.
l’m a short man bitch you got a problem ? you got to be fat and ugly bitch !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a VERY well endowed, devilishly handsome, 5’7″ “short guy”, with confidence out the wazoo, every girl I’ve ever dated elicited the “what is she doing with you” response from people. Short guys should consider themselves lucky, every guy I know that’s married wants to cut his wrists. When ever I feel sad and lonely I go visit my married buddies. All women with these ridiculous notions end up wrinkled, in their 30’s and alone, not even tall guys want them. I get the look and the hair flip 20 times a day, but in the end I’d just rather pay for it and be done with it. I am a hopeless romantic though and would jump at the chance of being with a solid person. Unfortunately the chances of finding that person are smaller than winning a lottery. The “plenty of fish in the sea” saying is a myth. Who cares, love yourself, get along and play well by yourself, do things that make you happy and tell the world to piss off, life is a gift, don’t waste it! The vision you have of finding a good woman is a fantasy, they are very rare, and most likely taken by the time they are in their early 20’s
Sorry, but the whole idea that all good women are taken by the time they are in their early 20s is absolute crap. When I was in my early 20s, I hadn’t even started dating yet. I’m 28 now and still want a great guy. Looks don’t even matter all that much to me – basically as long as he’s not repulsive, I could date him. I would happily date a guy who was 5’7″ ad not even give a rat’s behind about his height.
In fact, I dated a guy who was 5’5″. It didn’t last, but it had nothing to do with his height. It was more that we just had different values and interests and wanted different things. He’s an awesome guy though, and we’re still friends.
Just because a woman is single past 25 doesn’t mean there is something wrong with her, or that if she were any good, she’d be married by now. That is absolute crap.
___Summary___
@Anna
No one has said the things you are criticizing. Some key differences in what you claim they have said versus what was really said make your points rather moot.
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Details:
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm
Sorry, but the whole idea that all good women are taken by the time they are in their early 20s is absolute crap. When I was in my early 20s, I hadn’t even started dating yet. I’m 28 now and still want a great guy.
___Answer___:
No. Dave’s observation is far from crap. However, criticism based on misrepresentation often is.
The idea wasn’t “all good women are taken by the time they are in their early 20’s”. That is a misrepresentation of what Dave said (“…they are very rare, and most likely taken by the time they are in their early 20′s”).
There is a critical difference between “ALL” and very rare. You’re anecdote that you yourself are past the early 20’s and still want a great guy does NOT negate Dave’s assertion. You represent an exception to a definite trend. But the existence of an exception does not negate the shape of the overall distribution.
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm
Looks don’t even matter all that much to me – basically as long as he’s not repulsive, I could date him. I would happily date a guy who was 5’7″ ad not even give a rat’s behind about his height.
___Answer___:
Firstly, that is more or less a circular argument. “Looks don’t matter unless he is repulsive” really translates to “looks don’t matter unless he really fails the looks test”. All your really saying is that you might have a lower threshold based on aesthetics than what others may have.
Consider too that 5 foot 7 is 2 inches less that the average in North America. That is at best a 3% variation from the norm. Put that in perspective against a difference of 25 pounds on a 110 pound frame. That’s a 22% difference. A more liberal threshold of 3% isn’t even near the typical latitude that is expected for other attributes (not even considering the immutable and non direct consequence of one attribute compared to the other).
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm
In fact, I dated a guy who was 5’5″. It didn’t last, but it had nothing to do with his height. It was more that we just had different values and interests and wanted different things. He’s an awesome guy though, and we’re still friends.
___Answer___:
Again, that is a single case. In contrast to the plethora of experiences relayed by some of the gentlemen on this thread, it really doesn’t detract from the conclusion that a high percentage of women cannot overlook a lack of height when considering a potential partner.
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:37 pm
Just because a woman is single past 25 doesn’t mean there is something wrong with her, or that if she were any good, she’d be married by now. That is absolute crap.
___Answer___:
Please indicate exactly where someone has said, “just because a woman is single past 25” that “there is something wrong with her”.
We’ll save you some time. You can’t (because no one has said that).
No one has said, if (and only if, really) she were any good, she would be married by 25 either. One is merely erecting false statements in order to criticism them. That is closer to “absolute crap”.
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___Summary___:
@Anna
No one has said the things you are criticizing. Some key differences in what you claim they have said versus what was really said make your points rather moot.
@Everybody
massimo88 says:
June 24, 2013 at 9:12 pm
Dude give it up already, it is what it is, you’re nothing more than an annoying dweeb. You have your head so far up your ass you could lick your own tonsils…give it up already.
___Answer__:
ROLF.
Note how quickly Massimo88 responds to a reply for “Anna”. Recall the obvious connection between “Anne” and “Massimo88” in the past, as well how the agenda (in trying to dismiss the marginalizing of shorter-than-average men online) is practically the same for “Anne”, “Massimo88” and now even “Anna”.
It was expected that the “troll” puppet would post with the usually weak attempts to injure (via personal insult) because of prior failures to “shame” people into silence.
Well, M-Anne-ssimo’s “argument” is as weak as it usually is. Check the thread. Anne’s concepts were carefully debunked. All this occurred while the assistant troll of “Massimo88” attempted to distract with juvenile taunts. This is the typical tactic of people who promote intolerance. It’s good to see it continuing.
Note too that if “Massimo88” truly believed that “is what it is”, “he” would simply allow others to post without commentary (since, it “is what it is”). It was outlined in detail in the past (complete with Massimo88’s usual name-calling and childish insults in return too!), his claims were faulty (and likely intentionally so), so the excuse of “you’re just making all other guys look bad” is a false premise.
We’ll let everyone decide who is more the annoying dweeb (I’m sure Ila-anna-ssimo will say it is not them).
An incidental point of interest:
There seems to be a remarkable predilection to anal and oral activity from Massimo88. Perhaps there is a particular interest in that aspect of behaviour. This isn’t really the thread for it “butt” some seem to think it is.
What anal references will the puppet come up with next? Let’s wait (maybe at most a couple of minutes) and see…
Dude, you have major issues. Go to the bank get a loan and “buy” a clue. You are one demented puppy. I really do feel sorry for you…God Bless you, I mean really, God Bless you…
@Everybody
massimo88 says:
June 24, 2013 at 11:43 pm
Dude, you have major issues. Go to the bank get a loan and “buy” a clue. You are one demented puppy. I really do feel sorry for you…God Bless you, I mean really, God Bless you…
ROFLMAO
What did we predict? Massimo88’s post does not address the topic, and, is the same pedestrian ad hominem with the same touch of condescending overtones.
The venture into religious overtones is new (but not new to this type of behaviour). Let’s see what is next! :P
I like the “What did ‘we’ Predict” statement…so what you and the voices inside your head are working in concert to combat against the aggression of those who are not vertically challenged. Gabby, get a life, and maybe some friends, and a personality, and you will be amazed how you can transform your life…for the better. You will be surprised how people will welcome you instead of running in the other direction when they see you coming. You want to start targeting areas fro a just society, how about kids in this country having enough to eat and bed to sleep in, in a place not loaded with bed bugs and lice. then worry about where vertically challenged people stand in the grand scheme of things. Stop your whining, and grow a pair…
@ Everybody
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 12:55 am
I like the “What did ‘we’ Predict” statement…so what you and the voices inside your head are working in concert to combat against the aggression of those who are not vertically challenged. Gabby, get a life, and maybe some friends, and a personality, and you will be amazed how you can transform your life…for the better. You will be surprised how people will welcome you instead of running in the other direction when they see you coming.
___Answer__:
That’s just more of the dull personal insults that Massimo88 resorts to when “he” has nothing to add to the topic. It’s more of the desperate attempts to bully people away from a topic “he” doesn’t want people to inspect. Fortunately, nobody but the owner of this thread has that kind of control.
Lol. How Massimo88 can determine what kind of social life a person has is quick incredible.
Massimo88 seems to mistake that posting on a thread specifically on a topic is somehow the ONLY thing in a person’s life.
For someone who has done NOTHING (yes NOTHING) but denigrate those “he” cannot successfully debate, it is wholly ironic that one can even offer advice on how to be more socially acceptable.
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@ Massimo88
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 12:55 am
Stop your whining, and grow a pair…
___Answer__:
Whining?
Let another irony. “We” have remained on topic where ever possible, while Massimo88 has resorted to name-calling and insulting. The attempts with other avatars to dismiss this prejudice have been carefully debunked, yet some invent new avatars to push out the same propaganda. That would be more in line with “whining” than any refutation “we” have offered.
Please. You can do better than that.
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@ Massimo88
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 12:55 am
You want to start targeting areas fro a just society, how about kids in this country having enough to eat and bed to sleep in, in a place not loaded with bed bugs and lice. then worry about where vertically challenged people stand in the grand scheme of things.
___Answer__:
Pretty weak.
That would be the “perfect world” fallacy again. What you are doing here is ignoring the critical fact that this thread is specifically about the challenges of shorter men with respects to online dating. There are many campaigns online regarding the other social issues that you note. Everyone (that includes you or any other avatar you wish to post as) can go to those sites to address those issues.
This thread has a specific purpose. As excuse that “being overweight” is the same has been proven to be incorrect, all the posts using it to refocus the thread has been nothing but attempts to hijack it.
You suggest that the topic is not any issue “in the grand scheme of things”, yet contradict that by spending a lot of effort trying to bully people into silence. It is clear you really want people to ignore this topic… only those who actually feel that the status quo is fine would want this.
You are just way to easy…you continue to shoot yourself in the foot. One of the ways in making inroads is through common courtesy and establishing points of common cause to bring people to the table. But not you, just puke all over everyone. You’re obnoxious, pompous, and arrogant, and certainly not the first narcissist in the history of the world, you should allow science to study you like a bug under glass. You possess such comorbidity of classic personality disorders. You may have been short changed in the height department, though you hit the jack-pot in personality disorders.
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 2:18 am
You are just way to easy…you continue to shoot yourself in the foot.
@Massimo88
___Answer__:
Rofl!
How Ironic. Only your mind is your opposition “way too easy”. Most reading this thread will have trouble finding any particular case where those opposing your views (including myself) have been in any way challenged (let alone successfully challenged) by your posts. Seriously, you merely repeat fallacy when you cannot support your “points”.
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massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 2:18 am
One of the ways in making inroads is through common courtesy and establishing points of common cause to bring people to the table.
___Answer__:
In this you make the incorrect assumption that you have made from the start. That is the belief that ANY of this is to convince the zealot that “she” (er… “he”) is in error.
In reality, “we” only have to demonstrate that your logic is flawed to prove the point. In the last few posts alone, “we” have done this quite successfully. In the meantime you have resorted to the usual name-calling and derogatory remarks. Which, in itself, illustrates which party has been presenting the truth.
It is also doubtful that you will be able to convince anyone save yourself that your opposition has not been as civilized as possible in spite of your constant flaming.
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massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 2:18 am
But not you, just puke all over everyone. You’re obnoxious, pompous, and arrogant, and certainly not the first narcissist in the history of the world, you should allow science to study you like a bug under glass. You possess such comorbidity of classic personality disorders. You may have been short changed in the height department, though you hit the jack-pot in personality disorders.
___Answer:__:
That is way too precious.
Firstly, just where did I mention being “short changed” in the height department? Yes… you can assume I am 4 foot 8 if it makes you feel superior. Can I be bald and overweight too?
I couldn’t have asked for a better representation of projection. Not only are my posts on topic and as non-confrontational as possible, it is easy to find examples where you have __1__ boasted about personal prowess, __2__ Made disparagement remarks of someone you disagree with that involves an incredible ability to assess psychiatric fitness online, and __3__ basically act exactly as an online “troll” would act… yet your opposition is the “jack-pot” in personality disorders.
Lol.
Isn’t it time for you, er, I mean “Anna” to answer her challenges …or will be get more tedious attempts at insults?
@ Everybody
P.S.
One of the best examples of Massimo88’s errors was in using “Robert Reich” as an example to support “his” claims. THAT one was too funny.
Look up “former Secretary of Labour Robert Reich?” to see just how backward it really was!
No one cares, and I was correct you on the other hand are stark raving mad.
@ Everybody
P.S.
Thanks for reminding me |EMAIL SUPPRESSED|. I had forgotten how Massimo88 had misrepresented this paper:
Click to access prefs_mate_selection_1986_jpsp.pdf
…in order to support a fallacious claim. Search for the name of the paper in this thread. It’s just too incredible to believe if you didn’t see it in black and white.
You’re the one fiddling numbers here, sorry Gabby, and again…no one cares…you are just a sad little excuse for a human being….
@ Everybody
P.S.
Oh yeah… (you guys have better memory than I do). In one of the first threads as “Massimo88”, that poster had also said,
“If it makes you feel better, write your heart answering this missive, however, I’m done, have a great life. I really do have a lot more interesting and important things to do. Take care.”
Yet, comes back again and again to troll. Thanks people. I’ll pay more attention.
You really have a major problem, look ask your parents for some money borrow their car, and go and get yourself laid, you really need it.
@ Everyone
OK, OK… give “Massimo88” a chance to answer first. :D
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 4:11 am
And conspiracy theories abound of people being in league against you. You do have issues.
___Answer:__
You are pretty much alone in that belief. (And “we” are still waiting answers instead of the usual attempts to deflect with insults).
And who are the ‘WE” you refer to, because from what I gather most of the people here find you annoying and obnoxious. And I do have better things like Grad School…
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 4:13 am
No one cares, and I was correct you on the other hand are stark raving mad.
___Answer:__
Lol. Whatever you say. People can make up their own minds on who was correct (and who is delusional too.)
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 4:16 am
You’re the one fiddling numbers here, sorry Gabby, and again…no one cares…you are just a sad little excuse for a human being….
___Answer:__
Too funny. Anyone can figure it out for him or herself who fiddled with what and who is the sad one of the lot. Isn’t it great how the record can’t be edited out here?
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 4:19 am
You really have a major problem, look ask your parents for some money borrow their car, and go and get yourself laid, you really need it.
___Answer:__
The insults just aren’t cutting it. It’s still obvious that you have no substance to your position. Still waiting…
massimo88 says:
June 25, 2013 at 4:26 am
And who are the ‘WE” you refer to, because from what I gather most of the people here find you annoying and obnoxious. And I do have better things like Grad School…
___Answer:__
Hmm… “we” are referencing what you brought up… or do you not recall. Most people here? Well, you can believe what you want. Don’t let “us” (lol) keep you from better things.
Where you get this we from amazes me, you’re the only one making sad circular attempts to rebut my posts, which by the way others have agreed with. Haven’t seen anyone picking sides with you. Look, you’re a sad little person with no life, who has grandiose illusions of yourself, which is really pathetic. Do you really think that for the most part people read your drivel. Their eyes glaze over after the first paragraph.
OK OK OK. I don’t follow the Women vs Short Guy threads very closely because people seem to enjoy lighting them on fire, so who am I to stop all the fun? But today it’s gotten a little out of control and seemed excessively personal. So I’m gonna try to delete the most inflammatory ones and see if we can move on with a little more decorum. Sorry if I’m cutting anyone off mid-stream, but sniping back and forth is just, well, kinda boring. Thanks!
I think that depends on your definition of “good”. If by good you mean hot, sexy and under 25, then yes you are right. If by good you mean kind, thoughtful, appreciative and emotionally stable – as well as attractive- those qualities usually take some years to develop. Women also are devalued to a number on these online sites. but it is their age instead of their height. And my ideal guy is short, dark, smart and handsome- any guy over 5’10 is not attractive to me.
Lying and omitting information are not the same things. Taking pictures of your face from flattering angles or only including pictures of your face are not dishonest, and neither is wearing hats to hide a receding hairline. There is no lying involved there, it’s just putting your best pics up, which I’m pretty sure everyone does on dating websites. Would you put a picture of yourself on a dating website just after rolling out of bed, wearing dirty sweats? Lying is putting up a picture of yourself from 10 years ago when you were 100 pounds thinner, or overtly lying about your height or body type.
As a girl, I don’t know how hard it is for shorter guys, but I would say if there is anything about a person that they don’t want to share online, they should just leave that space blank, not lie.
I used to be overweight, and I would put up pictures of just my face. This wasn’t any type of lie – seriously, I’m not stupid. I knew that if there’s a guy I liked talking to, I’d probably meet him eventually. I didn’t put up full body pics because I wanted to attract guys who clearly didn’t care about those things, if they would message a girl who only has headshots up. And I did not want to attract chubby chasers – I had every intention of losing weight (and was successful!) and did not want a guy who would want me to stay fat and unhealthy just because it turned him on. In fact, whenever I got a message, I would go through the guy’s questions on okcupid, and if he either indicated that he was a chubby chaser, or that overweight would be a dealbreaker, I would delete his message immediately because I want someone who is neither shallow nor a chubby chaser.
Never once did I decide not to respond to a guy over something silly like height.
I can’t speak for all girls, but I personally know that looks have never been a dealbreaker for me. In fact, I think Mark Lawson (5’7″, a soap opera actor) is one of the hottest men alive. Shallowness and acting like a douchebag have been the only dealbreakers for me, besides the situation where the guy is awesome but just not the one for me.
___Summary___:
@Anna
On Lying:… One cannot omit the differences in expectation as far as to what and how information is revealed. Furthermore, the problem is rarely the “lie” but rather the direction in which the embellishment takes.
On not offering Information:… That’s more a function of what the competition does than what you want to do personally.
Aesthetics vs. Single Attribute:… Looks is really talking about overall aesthetics. It’s the overall aesthetics that is what a shorter-than-average guy wants to be evaluated on. It’s the heightist that can’t see past the height and refuses to examine the potential any further.
Whether you personally do not judge this way doesn’t remove the observation that an alarming number of women online do.
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Details:
Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Lying and omitting information are not the same things. Taking pictures of your face from flattering angles or only including pictures of your face are not dishonest, and neither is wearing hats to hide a receding hairline. There is no lying involved there, it’s just putting your best pics up, which I’m pretty sure everyone does on dating websites. Would you put a picture of yourself on a dating website just after rolling out of bed, wearing dirty sweats? Lying is putting up a picture of yourself from 10 years ago when you were 100 pounds thinner, or overtly lying about your height or body type.
___Answer:___
On the surface, you may think you have something with this angle. But you really don’t.
While telling a falsehood, and telling the whole truth are semantically different, such an argument __purposely ignores__ the different challenges each gender faces in the typical online situation.
The expectation of an online profile demands the statement of one’s height to the precision of an inch (or a centimetre in some sites). One could elect to not post a height, but given that most of the competition will post one that would already be a disadvantage (much like post no photograph).
In __extreme contrast__ is the convention that people (and effectively, women) need only post a self-assessed, and vague comparative value for their body-fat ratio. As it is subjectively “self-assessed” it is always coyly couched as “well, I think that was the best description”. As it is vague, there is plenty-of-room for interpretation.
In this way, a reporting of 1 inch in difference to actual height is automatically a “falsehood”, while a liberal assessment is just an “opinion”. I really doubt that anyone cannot see how the expectations of accuracy are wholly different.
Furthermore, consider that it is never really the “lie”, it is really the direction in which the embellishment occurred. It is unlikely that a woman will rebuff a multi-millionaire for “lying” about his net worth. It is also unlikely that she would rebuff him for saying he was 5 foot 8 when he was actually 6 feet tall.
What if online dating demanded full body, clear and highly defined photographs in formfitting outfits. Along with that, a full battery of clothing industry measurements (chest-waist-hips, cup size, instep, etc…) was required before a profile could be posted. Say then, that height need only be advertised in vague subjective comparisons (say, “kind of average”, “not bad”, “tallish”, “under 10 feet”). Just how much moral high ground could women claim then?
Again, it’s the expectations of how accurately the information is relayed that differentiates how height and body-fat ratio are reported. It has little to do with “lying” versus “only tell part of the truth”. Hence, your position is not valid.
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
As a girl, I don’t know how hard it is for shorter guys, but I would say if there is anything about a person that they don’t want to share online, they should just leave that space blank, not lie.
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Well, that would be facetiously insincere at best. The fact that this thread even exists should be a clear indication of how difficult the experience is for shorter men. As far as not reporting what one doesn’t want to share, again, that is far more dependant on the expectations of the venue and what the competitive action is, than any desire to be less transparent.
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
I used to be overweight, and I would put up pictures of just my face. This wasn’t any type of lie – seriously, I’m not stupid. I knew that if there’s a guy I liked talking to, I’d probably meet him eventually. I didn’t put up full body pics because I wanted to attract guys who clearly didn’t care about those things, if they would message a girl who only has headshots up.
___Answer:___
It may not have been a lie, but it was not the entire truth. If you actually wanted to attract guys who clearly didn’t care, you would have told the whole truth on body shape. You advocate the “best” angles for photographs and the omission of what could be interpreted negatively. It stands to reason that you wish to have the missing information extrapolated in a positive light.
Certainly, you will find some sort of mitigation for not posting a full body shot. Let’s examine that…
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
And I did not want to attract chubby chasers – I had every intention of losing weight (and was successful!) and did not want a guy who would want me to stay fat and unhealthy just because it turned him on. In fact, whenever I got a message, I would go through the guy’s questions on okcupid, and if he either indicated that he was a chubby chaser, or that overweight would be a dealbreaker, I would delete his message immediately because I want someone who is neither shallow nor a chubby chaser.
___Answer:___
This is really nonsense (and nothing more than an excuse for not posting photographs that revealed your true body shape). We’ll explain.
The percentage of men who would consider a normal range of body-fat ratio in women far outweigh the percentage that are particularly interested in women with excessive body fat. To create a filtering system that might preclude the latter group, but, as a collateral, remove many of the former group who would be suspicious of “missing information” is as a whole, counter-productive. It is akin to not carrying a cell phone because you are abhorrent of a couple of wrongly placed calls… never mind all the other calls you’d miss.
No.
You only have this in place as a convenient excuse (whether to yourself, men browsing online ads, or both).
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Never once did I decide not to respond to a guy over something silly like height.
___Answer:___
Like before, what you do as an individual neither negates nor even detracts from the trend that is clearly established by the men who have posted their experiences here.
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Anna says:
June 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
I can’t speak for all girls, but I personally know that looks have never been a dealbreaker for me. In fact, I think Mark Lawson (5’7″, a soap opera actor) is one of the hottest men alive.
Shallowness and acting like a douchebag have been the only dealbreakers for me, besides the situation where the guy is awesome but just not the one for me.
___Answer:___
Your anecdote (about the soap opera star) does not really support your assertion that “looks have never been a deal breaker”.
It is unlikely anyone qualifies whether or not a soap opera star is “good looking” by an explicit height evaluation first (you know, like how many women on sites like Plenty-of-Wishes do). They see his physique (and not height) and his face and judge it.
Furthermore, “looks” are a total package of aesthetics and not a singular value that adult height is. That many women measure the height of a man against her perception of what is considered worthy to her peers is well known and the personal trails of many who have responded here all point to this.
When you mention the desirable “looks” of a soap opera star, you are really talking about the affinity for certain values. This is wholly different from a repugnance of a certain measure to the point of instant dismissal from further competition based on it.
Besides, whether height is a deal breaker for you personally, has no bearing on what is happening overall online.
The shorter than average guys would all love to have the chance to show whether they are a douche bag or not. That’s all.
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___Summary___
@Anna
On Lying:… One cannot omit the differences in expectation as far as to what and how information is revealed. Furthermore, the problem is rarely the “lie” but rather the direction in which the embellishment takes.
On not offering Information:… That’s more a function of what the competition does than what you want to do personally.
Aesthetics vs. Single Attribute:… Looks is really talking about overall aesthetics. It’s the overall aesthetics that is what a shorter-than-average guy wants to be evaluated on. It’s the heightist that can’t see past the height and refuses to examine the potential any further.
Whether you personally do not judge this way doesn’t remove the observation that an alarming number of women online do.
Who the fcuk is this massimo88 loser. There is no way guys talk the way he does. Women discriminate over the stupidest things. If you don’t like it stop trying to pretend this height discrimination doesn’t exist.
@ JustMe — so do you care to divulge your height preferences for your online profile? Lemme guess…6′ or above, amiright!?
I had this profile on a dating app, I never lied my height (5’5”), but never showed it too. Turned out a lot girls would say how handsome I was, that I was very athletic, and had a lot of interested until I told them my height when they asked (I never lied when asked). Well, I decided to do what you suggested (before I read you of course), and made it very clear my height on my profile. Well, I noticed from few messages a day I started to receive 0 messages in that app website. Furthermore, I initiated some conversations with girls, and they always replied interested, asking me a question or something. Which did not even give me time to reply, because as soon as I tried replying, I was BLOCKED for no reason. That was just the time to read my profile and see my height there. So yeah, a lot of prejudice against short guys (which makes no sense at all), and it is even worse on dating websites. I am a honest man, hard working, no addictions, etc. You could say I am the perfect match except I am short. I have had girls simply stop dating me because it bothered them that they were taller than me on heels and next week they would be dating a lame tall guy that would ended up either beating them or cheating on them… Sadly, in this society height is more important than even being good looking or athletic, worse, it is more important than your personality and if you are a good person.
Hey I posted here for many years, this very post. Go look for my comments. I am 5’4. I have had the exact eperiences as you with American women, but I found a woman who is so into me she wants to marry me. But not in America, in Colombia. Go to Colombia, man! The nation has NO HEIGHTISM WHATSOEVER! Even most of the ceilings are lower! Like 7 feet instead of 8. EVERY SINGLE THING is within reach of a 5’4 person. For instance, no high shelves at stores, no high shelves in apartments or homes, etc.
What is more, is that the women are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in mate selection! They *WANT* and *intensely desire* *nice guys*!!! Shocking, right?! I go there, be myself, and instead of being the pariah I am in America, I can actually get dates from girls just walking the streets! They even openly flirt with me without me initiating contact!
I’m sorry, that has never in my life happened in America. I encourage you, particularly, oh so much, to use the service I used, MyColombianWife dot Com and tell the owner, Alexander, that Theodore Smith referred you. He’s a great guy who really takes time and effort to screen both the women and men to weed out the dirtbags.
But you must go to Colombia, man. It was life-changing for me, as a short guy! I fully plan to live as much of my life as I can down there, if only to experience one place in the world where there is no heightism. It is *so* different! These women, when i tell them I’m 165 cm tall, a LOT of htem say, “Oh good. I was afraid you were over 170!” can you believe that?!
Hey I posted here for many years, this very post. Go look for my comments. I am 5’4. I have had the exact eperiences as you with American women, but I found a woman who is so into me she wants to marry me. But not in America, in Colombia. Go to Colombia, man! The nation has NO HEIGHTISM WHATSOEVER! Even most of the ceilings are lower! Like 7 feet instead of 8. EVERY SINGLE THING is within reach of a 5’4 person. For instance, no high shelves at stores, no high shelves in apartments or homes, etc.
What is more, is that the women are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in mate selection! They *WANT* and *intensely desire* *nice guys*!!! Shocking, right?! I go there, be myself, and instead of being the pariah I am in America, I can actually get dates from girls just walking the streets! They even openly flirt with me without me initiating contact!
I’m sorry, that has never in my life happened in America. I encourage you, particularly, oh so much, to use the service I used, (Google MyColombianWife) and tell the owner, Alexander, that Theodore Smith referred you. He’s a great guy who really takes time and effort to screen both the women and men to weed out the dirtbags.
But you must go to Colombia, man. It was life-changing for me, as a short guy! I fully plan to live as much of my life as I can down there, if only to experience one place in the world where there is no heightism. It is *so* different! These women, when i tell them I’m 165 cm tall, a LOT of htem say, “Oh good. I was afraid you were over 170!” can you believe that?!
Obviously, the short guy thing is insane. I understand why women wouldn’t find a guy attractive if he is short but c’mon, ladies! Ease off insulting them. We get it. “Be taller.” We will work on it. I don’t fault you for your feelings of attraction but keep your mouth shut about it.
Same goes for guys. Anyone who says the word “fatty” shouldn’t be allowed to date anymore. Period. Again, you can be attracted or unattracted to whomever you want but shut the hell up about it.
If someone expresses interest in you, either online or in person, show them a little respect. They just complimented you. They put themselves on the line with the intention of flattering you. So don’t be a jerk. Don’t find them attractive? Fine. Thank them and move on.
Finally, “now I know why these people are 30 and still single?” Sorry, Charlotte Bronte, I didn’t realize we all had to be wed and bed by 16. Maybe some 30 year olds (and, gasp, older!) have high standards. Maybe being blandly self-assured someone will sleep with us isn’t our highest priority. Maybe some people have taken a look at our society’s divorce rate and ever-changing demographics and consciously decided to postpone settling down until it makes sense for them.
We are not all landed gentry and old maids. We are just doing our best to find someone who we love and loves us in return. That’s a damn hard task and anyone who EVER achieves it should be thankful they beat the odds.
Wait, are you not landed gentry? This site is intended only for landed gentry. Please go now.
Finally, a site trying to keep out the riff raff. I doff my top hat to you good sir. More importantly though, how do we get to hear the harrowing adventures of Inspector Whiskerton?
My cat has applied for her own blog, but as of yet WordPress is refusing. Unfortunately Whiskerton is colored with more than a bit of racial insensitivity, which is just her rhetorical style.
I LOVE so many things about your comment, but the Charlotte Bronte made my night. Well typed, sgt. slaughter, well typed indeed!
Well said!
I wonder who has a harder time of it – short guys or overweight girls. I’ve known some awesome, beautiful large ladies over the years, but as an average sized guy I generally prefer girls smaller than me. Based on who’s in abundance on dating sites, it appears most guys share my preferences. A cool, beautiful girl is going to attract men no matter what size she is, but I’ve been on those dating sites – there’s a lot of unattractive women on there, and the sad fact is most of them either identify is “curvy/a little extra” or their pictures tell me. I’m just curious how it compares to the short guy thing. A short guy who’s particularly charming, handsome or successful can overcome it – is it the same with women?
I think cool people find cool people, regardless of their physical specifics. The thing that makes me think it could be worse for short guys is that they are plenty of men who prefer larger women. They look for it specifically. But I’ve never heard a female ever say the words, “you know what REALLY turns me on? When a guy is shorter than me. Makes me sooooo hot.”
Not to mention the fact that, unless morbidly obese, these “larger” girls can put on their running shoes and lose the weight in a matter of months. No matter how many handstand pushups I do, I don’t gain an inch in height. And if someone wants to change so bad, then they can do it anytime they want. The fact that there are overweight people complaining about how they cant get a date because they are overweight is laughable, UNLESS you have a physical impairment that prevents you from exercising, asthma/copd etc, or take medication that causes you to gain weight uncontrollably. In these situations, THAT is when it becomes the same as the short guy’s pain; because they cant do a damn thing about it. And how politically incorrect would a short guy be if he told a wheelchair-bound girl that she was too fat to be compatible with him?
It’s worse for sub-5’10” guys for one very simple reason: If overweight women wanted to not be overweight, they can simply lose weight. Well, not simply–changing a lifetime of eating and exercise habits isn’t trivial, and it’s often connected to emotional or psychological issues to boot–but if they really wanted to, they could. They have the option.
Sub-5’10” guys, though, can’t just go to the doctor and say “hey, bolt in a couple of aftermarket femurs, and while you’re in there, longer tibias and fibias would be good.”
Obviously you haven’t heard of Cosmetic Leg Lengthening. http://www.betzinstitute.com/ and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-rock-positano/courting-controversy-cosm_b_74664.html for more information.
To be honest with you elizabeth, I’m not willing to pay thousands on a painful operation for cosmetic reasons. Why should men or women have surgery for something that isn’t life threatening and not covered by health insurance for this reason? It’s sad when men and women have to modify the body that came naturally in order to be considered dateworthy.
This institute is in GERMANY.
“Removal of the internal nail is considered an outpatient procedure and is performed 1-2 years after the lengthening.”
This is not the neighborhood gym. We have to have a NAIL IN OUR LEG for 1-2 YEARS. With physical therapy 2-4 times per week.
I’m pretty sure it’s tens of thousands of dollars, not just thousands.
Also, from the other link
” This procedure can damage nerves, muscles and joints. If such damage were to occur it could become irreversible leading to long term problems such as arthritis, limitation of joint motion and pain. Rare cases can even develop reflex sympathetic dystrophy which is a chronic pain condition and which may not be resolvable. Pulmonary embolism and deep vein thrombosis which are common with other forms of orthopedic surgery are rare with this surgery, but they can occur and could lead to sudden shortness of breath, chronic leg swelling and even death. ”
Basically if you’re willing to give up years of savings, become a cripple for a year, risk major injury, have several major surgeries/pain, you can get maybe 3 inches. After that I still won’t be anywhere near the 6’0 these women are looking for.
Am I the only girl out there who doesn’t mind shorter guys? I’m 5’4″ and most of the guys I’ve dated have been between 5’6″ and 5’8″. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t exactly aim for shorter guys, but it just seems to end up that way. I like wearing heels but don’t like being taller than my guy, so I’ve actually gone entire months without wearing high shoes. Imagine that! Sacrificing for love…
Anyway, I’m very awkward with tall guys. I don’t like feeling like a little girl when they look down at me. Not to mention, everything else is weird physically. A guy shouldn’t have to bend in half to kiss me. As a last anecdote, I danced with a guy who was 6’8″ (!!!) at a bar last week, and I’m pretty sure I grinded with his knees…
5’6″ – 5’8″ is short? I’d give anything to be in this range. No women exist who will date a guy like me who is only 5’1″. I don’t mind dating taller women, and overweight women but all women hate short men, especially ones like me. We’re just the unlucky men who are unloved. We wish we could get dates but women (including short women) will not consider us. I love when a lady wears high heels even if it makes her taller than me, they look sexy!
Amen, brother.
I exist! I’m dating a guy I’d peg to be about 5’1″/5’2″ (he claims taller, but I’m 5’5″ and he’s def a few inches shorter than me.)
I’ve dated all over the height spectrum too (tallest 6’5″) and I’ve fucked a bunch of guys, and I love my guy to death and wouldn’t change a thing about him! <3 Actually, I found this page searching for other women who like short men lol!
I'm secure with my physical appearance, and bisexual, so hooking up with people smaller than me is no biggie since quite a few girls I get with are smaller than me. Also, we met in person, not online. My advice to short guys would be to go for open minded, adventurous girls who already know they're hot! You may find fewer people willing to date you, but those who will are probably more awesome anyway! (Ok, I'm biased!) Also, bi girls may be more open minded since most girls sleeping with girls are out of luck if they have a 6 foot min. Good luck!!!
Dude..im also 5’5 and i know how it feels to b 5’1 …. world is really a bitch for us short guys, so we have to work really hard in all aspects . The girls prefer tall guys cuz they feel safe with them and i also feel that this point is valid… so be strong physically and mentally…and rest b the man of values , i ve seen many dumb idiot tall guys….atleast i dont want to be like that.. !!
I gotta weigh in here. And not at ALL in the way that I thought I would have when I first read the original article.
I swear I peed my pants when I first read it, mostly because it’s masterfully written and fluids flowed from every part of me as I gasped for breath between guffaws. However, also because it was so true, at that point in my somewhat young Match.com experience, when I had been burned by not one, but FOUR alleged 5’9”ers who showed up at first “meetings” as 5’5”ers. It was I who began to doubt my ability to discern whether a guy was gonna be shorter than me or not. In fact, this summer I took the opportunity to have my children gauge, on the baby giraffe measuring stick at the zoo, if 5’9” could POSSIBLY be shorter than my very average 5’5”. I thought I was going friggin’ nuts. It’s a mind F when a Matchguy maintains that he’s 5’9”, fo sho, and I end up looking down at him (literally… oh yeah, and then figuratively…) upon first meet.
Here’s the deal. My very first bf was about 5’8”. And that was super great. I didn’t care, nor did I ever care, to date tall guys. I didn’t even know guys 6’2” EXISTED until a couple years ago. I thought the male max was like 6’0”. Dad, bro, and ex-husband were all 6’. Which is only 3” more than first BF! Who cares. I don’t need a tall guy. But it is very true that I need a taller-than-me guy. To me, it’s just comforting, and possibly a bit of a protection thing. Law of the jungle.
The issue is the deception. It’s disrespectful. And it’s embarrassing when you’re meeting a stranger for the first time and, based on a couple possibly outdated pictures and his estimation of stature, you’re trying to figure out if it’s him or not. So at the very least I can keep my chin up as I peer around the room and try to find my date. But when he finally finds me, and I tower over him in my 1.5” heels, I’m already a little hacked off. Do the math. But what these guys count on, is that they already know from emailing, texting and phone calling, is that I’m the nicest friggin girl in town and I’m never gonna call him on the lie. He’s right. But he blew it. Because trust just left the building.
Listen. I’ve been scolded by the less-tall guys in emails because I had a minimum height listed as 5’10”. Well, it didn’t start out like that. I changed it 5’10” to allow for 4 inches of lying.
Right now I’m very happy with new Match guy who is 5’8”. And he is 5’8”. And that’s alright by me. Because he’s a truthful 5’8” and not a fibbing five-five.
What I’ve learned is that most often guys, to their credit, do not give a good goddamn if a women is taller than they are. That is a new discovery and it is, quite frankly, very cool. HOWEVER… I had NO idea that short women wanted 6’3” guys. I’m 48 years old. I’ve been around the block. (In a good way!). All I want is to not be the biggest body in the bed. I assumed that girls 5’0” would be happy with anybody taller than 5’0”. But no? Princess 5’0” wants a 6 footer and nothing else shall do? WTF is that? Snot. Now I’m really feeling for these guys. I have a lot of short girlfriends and I figured that based on that, there was definitely a market for the 5’6’ and below. I am beside myself right now realizing what bitches these bitches can be. And to dis and call names? Well there is a whole catalog of crap that women can do to give nice women a bad name. I had no idea we had add this to the table of contents. Now I know where these guys are coming from and hopefully they’ll realize there are reasons (above!) for profile height preferences, but women who will demean a person for a physical characteristic are not worth their energy anyway. Same for you assclowns who would call a girl “fatty”. I haven’t heard that word since the Little Rascals. Dating is ridiculous because people like THAT are in the pool!
I’m 5’6″ when I wake up. I have a theory about why so many really short women (under 5’2″) like really tall men (6’+), and why women tend to be more accepting of shorter men as they get taller. Mind you, I’m not saying that 6’6^ women are more willing to date 5′ men than their 6’2″ sisters, but that taller women tend to be more open minded than their shorter sisters, and that some of the most militant/callous women are the shortest of the bunch.
All women grow up in a world where they are the shorter gender. They have smaller hands and feet, and tend to give up 40% in upper body strength, even when they are the same size a male. This is nature. If you believe that our first “love” is daddy for girls and mommy for boys, then you can see that generally daddy is bigger than mommy, and daddy is WAY bigger than his little girl. Even if you don’t believe we model our future mates on our parents, daddy still tends to be bigger than mommy, and way bigger than the girl. If the girl is short, she goes out into a world where men are even taller, some even taller than daddy. This is sociology. The short woman to be reads the same stuff that we all do, and “tall, dark, and handsome” has been around for a very long time. This is culture.
Our short woman grows to 5’1″ and almost men are taller. If she happens to be strong willed, as many women are, she senses power equals height in men, and she needs her man to be as big as her ego. If she just has a tall man fetish, she really has a large choice of tall men, and really doesn’t need to compromise. In the US, average male height is at least 5’9″ (I believe it’s actually 5’10”, but I think you’ll see it doesn’t matter to the premise). This means 50% are that median or above. Why settle for a shrimp of 5’6″ (yes, a 5′ tall girl told me this, as she looked up to me in her 3″ heels just in case I wanted to date her, even though I had no intention of asking out a girl half my age) when most men were at least three inches taller.
Taller women (compared to the norm for women which I’ve seen vary from 5’2″ – 5’6″ in magazines, newspapers, and on the internet, but which I’ll say means women at 5’7″ or above) quickly start running into problems that their smaller sisters don’t have. From what I can tell, the first five or six years of being tall after puberty suck for women. They outgrow the boys, which is mortifying for many of these tall women to be. . . and the boys they dwarf. Then comes the gawky tall girl klutz stage, when many soon to be amazons (tall, athletic, fit, & sexy), models (tall, slender, lithe, & sexy), and goddesses (beautiful, shapely, & sexy) look more like fawns learning to walk than the desirable women they will be. During that time the short girls are learning by doing (getting guys). By the time tall women get all their advantages, they’re far behind their more socially savvy short sisters. By then many tall men are taken, or find themselves dating short women. Plus, even a 6′ goddess has to come to terms that she’s tall, even for man, thus giving her a smaller pool of tall men from which to choose, a pool further depleted by predatory short women. What’s left is for her to lower her standards, a little, or become the next Top Model and marry a tall rock star, although some rock stars marry taller women.
Myself, I’ve dated a couple of tall women, and some who were just a little taller than me. Mostly, however, all the women were from 5’4″ to 5’9.” I could never get a date with a woman under 5’3″ ‘cuz I’m too short. I do count myself lucky to never have a woman disparage me for my height when I asked her out, even if she turned me down for being too short.
change that to 4″ taller than first BF ooops typo! Sorry.
I got an email from a guy with, literally, 5 paragraphs of qualifications you had to meet in order to talk to him. The usual was included, of course… had to be under 5’3, not be a “disgusting fatty…or big boned, or anything but thin”, had to have a certain hair color, blah blah blah. I’m 5’9, I’m not skinny minny, I have an ass and thanks to my country style-part Cherokee Indian ways, I have big bones. Defined bones, I suppose. No one in my family is short and barbie-like. I’m actually the shortest female.. we’re Amazons, as I like to gently call us. But damn we’re uniquely awesome. Anyways, the only qualification I met on his important list was my haircolor. And the only thing I was told was something semi sexual, which.. just don’t do that! Men need to be pistol whipped for that when they do that shit. Either way, I always at least write a thank you, regardless of my interest. Only because they took time out to compliment me. Or if they’re like said Guy above I clearly state my annoyance and tell them to take a hike. So, seeing a new message, prior to reading it, I wanted to check the profile out. A thousand qualifications later, I checked his picture out. And I almost died laughing. Someone of his physical looks could really judge others for theirs? Give me a break.
I emailed to say I don’t exceed his qualifications, and from that haven’t heard back from him. I wasn’t an exception to his preferences, I was someone to attempt to talk dirty to. That’s it. Now, if he’d written to get to know me…well, no, because he’s still a douche from what he portrays himself to be. Its what I can’t understand. Why have such an enormous list of preferences when you yourself aren’t all that and a bag of chips? Why say you, “don’t want any uglies” when you yourself… well, my point is made. What happen to finding the inner beauty? Unfortunately, I fear my generation is worse than others.
Also, honesty about height is vital. Only because, while it can be an insecurity, lying about it only makes matters worse. I’m perfectly fine dating someone shorter than me. But when I’m lied to about it, that turns me off. Why? Because that means your insecurity is off the wall, which means your confidence level is shot, which means I know you (in general) wouldn’t be able to date me without feeling like shit for having to look up at me. I went on a date with someone who claimed to be 5’8. He turned out to be 5’3. Really? Like i wouldnt notice the 5 inch difference? We never dated again. Bottom line: Who cares? We’re all human. Love doesn’t last because you’re still hot with awesome ABS and perky boobs at 70.
The height thing doesn’t really bother me. I’m 5’5″, but for 3 years I worked in an office with 10 men, and not one of them was taller than 5’9″. The owner of the company was actually the same height as me and two of the men were shorter. I never even really noticed it, except on the day I wore these new platform heels that made me taller than everyone but the 5’9″ guy. That was a little awkward, but I just didn’t wear those shoes very often; I like flats better anyway.
The only time the height thing ever bothered me was once when I met a guy from online and he was only 5’1″. I’ll admit that wierded me out a bit because he was so much shorter than me, but as far as this blog entry goes, I think that’s more the exception than the rule.
No. You know what? You’re a hypocrite. You cannot say at the beginning of your paragraph that “the height thing doesnt really bother me”, and then at the end of your paragraph say you are weirded out by guys who are as short as 5’1. The whole point of this article is to highlight the hypocricy of women when it comes to dating short men. In fact, its somehow more insulting to hear you say how you are comfortable dating short guys, and then put a freakin cut-off. And on top of it all, you couldn’t even be nice about it, either. Like most girls (and guys), you think it doesnt hurt Marc’s feelings, who is 5’1, to hear you say you were actually “wierded out” just being near a guy who shares his stature? You couldn’t simply say “It was a new experience, and took me by surprise being with a guy so much shorter than I”? or something like that? What would you feel like inside, if it were reversed, and one of the more open-minded guys posting on this thread said that he was literally wierded out by a girls body who looked just like you? What, every 5’1 guy is supposed to just accept that their bodies are so undesireable that women get wierded out just being near them? Just some food for thought: I dont know a single man my age (26) and older who would have the balls to say something so insulting to a girl, even a stranger on a forum.
Obviously Max is a shrimp! …and he’s probably “Marc” that is 5’1
I have to laugh at the reply Tina made to your comment! Did Marc (or other “shrimp’s”) decide to be 5’1″? I know men who have committed suicide because of being short and unable to find a woman! Yes Tina for some sick reason God chose to make Marc only 5’1″ as some kind of punishment or Marc made bad decisions such as eating junk food (as women told me is her belief of how men end up short). Plenty of men who were short in their teens started trying to change their diet to healthy foods thinking this will build height and learned that genetics is the reason they will end up short and there is nothing they can do to change this. This is how God intended them to be made kind of like Tall women have questioned why they were made so tall. For this reason a lot of short men eventually take their own lives. Others start questioning their religious beliefs and end up not believing in the existence of God. It is tragic to be born with something that will make you unattractive and there is nothing you can do to change your tragic fate. Nobody wants to be alone for the rest of their lives and for a lot of men, this is an unfortunate fate since there is a higher population of men than women making it a very competitive dating world for men and you can easily be eliminated from the dating equation and spend the rest of your life alone seeking the love and companionship that only a woman can give you.
I kind of like short guys. I really don’t get what other girls are freaking out about. When I’m attracted to a guy, height factors in at an importance of zero per cent- it doesn’t even register. And it often happens that the guys I like are about my height (5’6). Do not give a shit if I’m taller than them in heels.
I actually find dating tall guys kind of annoying. I always fall over when I have to reach up so high on my tip toes to kiss them. Not great with balance. And when we’re holding hands my arm has to bend at a weird angle to accommodate for how much higher up they are than me. It’s dumb.
LOVE your blog. A clever guy that loves cats is pretty much my dream man. Too bad you’re kind of tall.
Sandy, as far as I know, you’re the only person on the face of the earth who holds any of your opinions. Which means you rule!
Not the only one! Chiming in as a 6′ girl in love with a 5’8 guy…not going to say it wasn’t a challenge, but in the end, if you’re in love enough and can get past your caveman brain making irrational demands on potential partners, you get over it. I’m glad I did. He’s the best guy in the world. The biggest thing in the end is that it requires a lot of confidence on the part of both of you to be able to ignore the obnoxious comments and rude stares.
I always have and I always will prefer men on the shorter side of the bell curve, with 5’6″ to 5’7″ being PERFECT–I prefer to be able to look my partner in the eye (and occasionally stand on my tiptoes and look down on them…but that’s for a whole different type of blog ;)
Interesting when women say short -they usually mean 5’6-5’7. But what about 5’5 and under ?
I feel for you Roman and can relate. Us men shorter than 5’5″ are screwed. Some women don’t think men shorter than 5’5″ don’t even exist and the ones who do know there are sub 5’5″ men won’t consider dating someone so short.
5’5 is considered short to them 5’6 to 5’9 is average pretty much
@ Jeremy Brown, get your statistics up to date, 5’6″ IS short for a guy today, and yes I’m that height, let’s be realistic.
You are the definition of a smart and secure women.
The women who are concern with guys being taller, or having a minimum height, are not women who I would want to be with. Insecure, and frankly, not very smart if they buy into to whole protection thing (seriously, what do you need to be protected from, bears? Women are mostly attacked when they’re alone, and if your the type to get into fights, then that’s your own damn fault). If that is what they’re going to be picky about in the beginning, then I hate to think about what it would be like 5, 10, 20 years down the road. Divorce? Then whine about how the ex was a sleazebag and how dating is hard.
Now, I’m 5’3. It is what is. If a girl is taller than me, either barefoot or in heels, great. If
she’s shorter than me, great. I can move more gracefully (everyone tells me I need to give their spouses or partners dance lessons) on the dance floor at wedding, have a wicked personality and sense of humor, good character, and am putting together a rather successful, driven professional life–which will hopefully give enough financial freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, and time.
Sandy baby what are you doing next saturday, lol-my name is Nick -you are
the coolest chick around and bydaway I am 5’8 and 3/4 inches and I list myself as 5’9” I have to round it off to the highest inch but can’t help wondering that ladies think I am actually 5’5 or 5’6”
P.S. I love cats -cheers
Awww, poor babies. You’re being discriminated against because of YOUR LOOKS.
Yeah. Like that hasn’t been happenig to women by men for thousands of years. Get over it. Women have physical attractiveness standards too. Stop making heros or martyrs of short men.
A short man CAN overcome his height with the following features:
1) DO NOT put on a beer gut that hangs over your belt buckle. Short is one thing. Short AND fat is another. Sorry. Why? It screams you don’t respect yourself. Why would you respect us?
2) DO have proper manners. What are proper manners? Watching Cary Grant for several weeks MIGHT, just MIGHT, clue you in. Until you have manners indivisible from a man like that, you don’t have good manners. For example, your foul mouth, your gawking at other women while on a date, your failure to IMMEDIATELY take the check on a date AND graciously resist a woman’s POLITE offer to ‘go dutch’, marks you as a man with no manners whatsoever. You will die alone, as is only fitting.
3) Do NOT spend the first several minutes of a date blabbering endlessly abour yourself, your worries, and your favorite damn sports teams. You are ASSUMING things about the woman by doing so which will put DOA with her. That polite smile we wear is us thinking about that male model we saw in a magazine the other day and how a PICTURE is better than you are in real life.
4) Try ASKING YOUR DATE ABOUT HERSELF. But, again, MIND YOUR MANNERS. You do NOT have a right to her personal life story except as she chooses to reveal over time. Do NOT ask personal questions like,”Why did your last relationship end?” or “Do you have any illnesses?”. If you are dating simply to torture people, you’re a ZERO with a capitol ‘Z’. You’re a LOSER buddy, period. You may impress your booger eating, fart smelling friends with that kind of attitude, but that means you care more about what OTHER MEN THINK than you do a woman. Which is one of the key features of homosexual men: They like to impress other men. That being the case, it’s not a woman you should be dating. It’s your buddy Early you should be dating.
5) ‘Short’ in the male species kicks in a primal reaction in most women ( not all ) that says,”He is built to serve other males.” Google it. Short men were mostly ones ( Napolean had contacts YOU do NOT have ) relegated to the service of strong, influential families, not women. What this means is you need to come off as masculine as possible. That does NOT mean ‘steven segal masculine’ or ‘clint eastwood masculine’. It means you don’t talk with a lisp, walk with your head down, walk with your hands in your pockets, have limp wrists, or stand like a 5 year old boy about to get his butt spanked by his Mommy. It’s also why ‘short + fat’ is a real mental killer in women, visually speaking. You can get past it, but you have better have REALLY GOOD manners.
Reference some executive social training to get some help with your personas. Otherwise, just accept that you’re either probably going to go gay, be a monk, or wind up a bitter, woman hating old fat guy. Uh, the world’s already full of those so you aren’t exactly going to stand out from the herd.
Which is the final point: Women notice men who stand out. A lack of stature does go against you, but it’s NOT the deal breaker some of you think it is or the author here tries to spin it.
Do NOT take the advice of other bitter males. They do NOT want you to succeed with women, they do NOT want you to be happier than they are, and misery loves company. Spend your free time and let them program your attitude at your own risk. But at least realize what’s going on with them and why they want you around, versus away from them.
Also, if you’re a drunk…forget it. Besides ‘fat’, if you add ‘drunk’ to short you just become so incredibly UGLY to women that you might as well be obsese and have Bojangles biscuit stains on your dirty sweatshirt.
If you want to meet women, go where women go. Not men. You’d think this would be a no-brainer, but it always amazes me how many men say they can’t find a woman but spend nearly 95% of their free time in the company of mostly other men. You are writing your own end doing that.
Also, you should not cling to old stereotypes about women that you get from WW2 movies. Those were never right. Women DO want a man with a job and a man who is confident. Women do NOT want a bully, a lone drifter, a drunk, a domineering, or bossy men in their lives.
And remember…it’s NOT the female bird that does the dances and displays of beauty. It’s the male who does that. And they better do it well or they don’t rate as mates.
Also, have a moderate opinion of yourself. If you don’t look like Brad Pitt, don’t go around trying to get women who are simply out of your league. If you get a date with one, odds are VERY good she’s just bored or pities you. I’m not trying to be cruel, but that’s generally the case. You would do better to look in the mirror and accept that you have average looks in the face, may need to lose weight, and are short. Add ‘bald’ or ‘combover’ to that and you just are not going to be close to the male ideal, physically. You can let that bum you out or you can just do the best you can with what you have. Anything less is a diservice first to yourself, and then to any poor woman who agrees to date you.
And when she doesn’t a repeat date….come back to this post and ask yourself if you paid any attention to it.
1) Body fat ratio of 11% (at 53 yo, that put’s me in the top 1%).
2) Judith Martin is my patron saint.
3) Consular / Professional Interviewer. (i.e., used to listening)
4) See #3
5) Seek professional help (but not me, you’re too much of a nut case).
Shelly,
I sense a tone of bitterness in your email, and I can’t quite pinpoint why. I’m a short guy at about 5’4 and definitely understand how women overlook me only because of my height. I’ve been told by many people all of my life that I have a good looking face, but I’m short. To frustrate me even more, I’m in good shape, have my hair, am healthy, educated and look younger than my years.
My question is who cares if I’m short? Isn’t this similar to a woman with a pretty face who has small breasts? Isn’t a short woman’s desire for a tall man just as shallow as a man’s desire to date a woman with big boobs? I’d say, absolutely! The comparison to fat women doesn’t fit the bill in my opinion, at least for a guy like me. What’s worse is that I cannot understand at all why a woman my height or shorter would go for a guy who is not as good looking as me just because he’s taller. This drives me nuts! I’ve seen this many times where a good looking girl will date or marry a funny looking fat guy just because he’s tall!
I’ve been out with some attractive women, but they’re all foreign. I think some of this boils down to what’s “normal” for a particular culture. With that in mind, I’ve thought about moving to another country with shorter people many times. It’s sad that a guy like me with so many good attributes would even consider moving away, but hey maybe I’d be better off. Besides, the women are skinnier in many other parts of the world….
I just have to comment. Let’s say a tall, dark, and handsome guy had a beer belly hanging below his belt, has poor manners, talks about nothing but his favorite sports team, and is a total jerk would you still date him over a shorter guy who had all these qualities. I’ve actually avoided the more attractive women realizing they are out of my league but even the not so attractive women are only looking for tall men and are willing to spend their entire life single searching rather than date a short guy who finds them interesting. Then they complain how no guys are willing to go out with them forgetting about the short guy who was interested and willing to date her.
I have been turned down by woman on the sole reason of being short.. I don’t turn woman down because of things I find unattractive. I give them a chance regardless. Even though I find a large woman unattractive I just won’t blow them off and disrespect them. A lotta short guys usually hit the gym because they are so self conscious. I did just that and am in really good shape I worked my ass off for an 8 pac and I guess it helps be feel better about myself but than I have to deal with watching girls blowing me off to date assholes who just mistreat them. It sucks when you know something you have no control over turns off woman. I don’t lie about my height, and that’s why girls never even give me a chance in the first place. I’m nice, well mannered, and educated but woman just say no thanks your too short. Like woman think they have to look nice for us but really, the more make up and superficial a woman is the more repulsive she gets. I just want to meet someone who accepts me for I am. Shares my love for music and poetry. But no, as soon as they see I’m short they don’t even want to talk to me. So it’s no wonder us short guys get so upset.
Come on man, don’t slam girls who wear makeup. Height doesn’t matter to me at all. That’s just so shallow. However, I’m a bit of a goth and I wear tons of eyeliner because it’s my style. I don’t like being called repulsive for expressing myself through cosmetics. I’m not superficial – who cares what someone looks like if you can really connect with them and they make you happy? Generalizations suck. Eye makeup rules.
Men are not birds and if you want to be treated as an equal you can damn well pay for your own meal. Your comment makes me immeasurably happy that I’ve never had to meet you.
Women like you, are the reason straight men become bi-curious.
5’6″ woman checking in…I’ll happily date a short guy. Not sure if this may be related, I was a former “fatty” and men treated me like dirt. I haven’t forgotten that.
I also will not be ashamed of internet dating in my thirties or be convinced it means there is something fundamentally wrong with me. I’ve had three opportunities to do the marriage/kids thing and it didn’t feel like the right thing to do any of those times. It would have been not only a disservice to me, but to the guy as well.
But…the big difference is what you are in control of, verses what you can’t change. Frankly, if you don’t like short people; its no different (to me) than saying you don’t like Black people, or Asian, or Indian, or whatever. Saying you don’t date overweight or obese people is like saying you don’t date arrogant assholes.
Face it, some people are assholes because of the way they are brought up, or some people are arrogant because they really don’t have any self esteem…however, with effort and perhaps consoling, they can learn NOT to be that way… You can’t unlearn Black, you can’t unlearn short. People who ‘discriminate’ against short people, don’t like, or “just don’t find them attractive” are basically the same as racists. Justify all you want…but there you are.
I don’t want to start a controvery but being overweight isn’t necessarily a choice. Some overweight people have a health problem or are genitically overweight. There are woman out there who argue that short men “chose to be short”! For example, a woman who has attacked me online in a blog told me that men who end up short as adults didn’t take care of their health and “ate nothing but junk food or smoked pot or used other drugs”. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be 5’2″! I may have consumed candy but I changed my diet thinking I wasn’t getting enough calcium and other nutrients and never smoked pot or used other drugs.
That’s not true. Being overweight is not a CHOICE that anyone makes. For some people, it’s genetics – these people would have to starve themselves to be thin. For many, it’s a result of lifestyle, but even in these cases, many people eat for emotional comfort. Losing weight is not an easy thing – I’m a smart, motivated person, but it was one of the hardest things that I ever had to do.
Most overweight people never lose the weight, sadly. Or they lose it and gain it back – only 20% of overweight people lose it and keep it off. This could be due to genetics, or just a reliance on food for comfort. And in this world where guys treat fat girls like they don’t matter or aren’t even worthy of a conversation, it’s a vicious cycle.
Do overweight people have more control to change their conditions than short people? In most cases, of course. But don’t act like it’s easy, or that they’re making a choice to be fat.
It’s wrong that guys and girls write each other off for their height or weight. It’s one thing to have a preference, it’s entirely another to act like not meeting that preference makes one less of a person.
And comparing overweight people to assholes is just wrong. Really.
___Summary___:
@Anna
Being overweight is absolutely in the control of the individual. No one said it was easy, but it is not essentially impossible (like trying to increase one’s height).
Height restrictions are just that. It is not a “preference”. It is a restriction. Euphemisms are what people use to feel better about having a prejudice.
The parallel between excessive weight and excessive ego may not be kind, but it is accurate.
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Anna says:
June 13, 2013 at 2:25 am
That’s not true. Being overweight is not a CHOICE that anyone makes. For some people, it’s genetics – these people would have to starve themselves to be thin. For many, it’s a result of lifestyle, but even in these cases, many people eat for emotional comfort. Losing weight is not an easy thing – I’m a smart, motivated person, but it was one of the hardest things that I ever had to do.
___Answer:___
False.
In practically all cases of excessive body-fat, it is within the CONSCIOUS ABILITY of that person to change the situation. Not only that, one does not develop a high BMI overnight. It takes a protracted period of time where the action or inaction of the individual to control the situation is critical.
While genetic predisposition to carrying more body fat varies from individual to individual, it still does not negate the culpability of the individuals CHOICE to make the difference. It may be more difficult for some, but it is not practically IMPOSSIBLE like altering one’s adult height is.
How many people are short as a side effect of doing something (like eating) for emotional comfort? That would be NONE.
Losing weight is not easy for most of us. Maintaining a reasonable body-fat ratio is also a conscious effort for most. However, no matter how hard it was for you to personally do this, how many 5 foot 2 guys have increased their height through a lifestyle change? That would be NONE.
To compare high body-fat ratio to that of shorter-than-average adult height is not only ridiculous, it is insulting to anyone who has a trait that cannot be changed, yet is surreptitiously vilified by a sector of the population.
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Anna says:
June 13, 2013 at 2:25 am
Most overweight people never lose the weight, sadly. Or they lose it and gain it back – only 20% of overweight people lose it and keep it off. This could be due to genetics, or just a reliance on food for comfort. And in this world where guys treat fat girls like they don’t matter or aren’t even worthy of a conversation, it’s a vicious cycle.
___Answer:___
Let’s see… 20% of overweight people who lose the excess weight can keep it off. Essentially ZERO percent of people (of any height) can increase their height, let alone maintain the newly achieved height. How one can still draw a parallel between excess body-fat and adult height is completely specious.
The genetic component determines the propensity to retain fat and relative effort it takes to maintain a healthy body-fat ratio. However, this effort is well within the reach of practically all, and not the IMPOSSIBILITY of gaining adult height.
Guys treat anyone (man or woman) who does not take responsibility for their own actions (or inactions) the same. However, it is the heightist that treats men with total contempt should they not be of a given adult height threshold.
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Anna says:
June 13, 2013 at 2:25 am
Do overweight people have more control to change their conditions than short people? In most cases, of course. But don’t act like it’s easy, or that they’re making a choice to be fat.
___Answer:___
In “most” cases? There can’t even be a comparison. No person can make him or herself taller. It is a fixed attribute. Body fat ratio is not.
Who is acting like it is easy? Like most things, it varies from person to person, but it is far from impossible. The point is that comparing the aversion to excessive fat to that of a person’s height is absurd.
As far as “choice”, it is absolutely in the control of each individual. No amount of denial of personal responsibility is changing that fact.
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Anna says:
June 13, 2013 at 2:25 am
It’s wrong that guys and girls write each other off for their height or weight. It’s one thing to have a preference, it’s entirely another to act like not meeting that preference makes one less of a person.
___Answer:___
The fact that you refer to a RESTRICTION as a preference is already a clue that you are applying a certain amount of rationalization to deny the truth about the matter. A restriction, which is what is usually written explicitly in online ads as far as height is concerned, is wholly different from a mere preference. Heightists tend to use the euphemistic term “preference” to fool themselves into believing they are not being bigoted. The truth is that an aversion to an immutable and innocuous trait is really a prejudice. This has been explained in detail on this thread.
While it is definitely irrational to have a height restriction, one CANNOT compare it to a lack of affinity towards a candidate having excessive body lean-to-fat ratio.
The attribute of body-fat is beyond mere aesthetics. If excessive enough, it has definite correlation with health issues. It is within the control of the individual (no matter how much some attempt to say that it is so difficult in cases that it is equivalent to impossibility, it is not). Being a World-class athlete is difficult. Maintaining a reasonable body mass index is not. Changing one’s adult height… well THAT is to all intents and purposes, impossible. There is NO comparison.
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Anna says:
June 13, 2013 at 2:25 am
And comparing overweight people to assholes is just wrong. Really.
___Answer:___
It isn’t as wrong as it seems at all. It might not be the kindest comparison, but Bruce’s comparison has some merit.
In cases, a person may be an arrogant asshole due to genetic predisposition to narcissism. In other cases, it may be a learned behaviour. Aside from cases of more severe mental challenges, the attitude is of the individuals own volition, and is a developed through time. It is also difficult to correct especially if the reward for the correct behaviour is not immediate. It takes a serious effort towards a change in outlook, a lifestyle change if you will, to really defeat the errant behaviour. In the more dire cases, there are medical treatments available.
The key points are that it is a BEHAVIOUR or a consequence of behaviour, and, it is something that can be altered. Really. How is that different from excessive body non-lean mass? Be honest.
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Summary
@Anna
Being overweight is absolutely in the control of the individual. No one said it was easy, but it is not essentially impossible (like trying to increase one’s height).
Height restrictions are just that. It is not a “preference”. It is a restriction. Euphemisms are what people use to feel better about having a prejudice.
The parallel between excessive weight and excessive ego may not be kind, but it is accurate.
I know. That has SO much to do with the topic of how dating is problematic for short men.
Emjay…i have a feeling you’re going to be ‘internet dating’ for a long time. But hey, you’re a sassy, confident kinda gal who’s not taking shit from anyone and they better know it.
. Fearsome baby, fearsome!
Not sure, but what I’m hearing is that so long as a person gets at least 3 offers for marriage/kids, then they can wear their internet dating pins super-proud. So if someone gets 22 offers ( does it matter if the person is sober or not? ), then THEY can probably be Uber-Alles Proud Internet Dater.
Fantastique!
Hank, I think you misunderstood my post or I didn’t make it more clear…my point was that no one who does “internet dating” should be ashamed of it and I used my own experience as an example. Internet dating doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you or me or anyone. If I’m doing this for awhile, it’s cool with me…I don’t want kids, there’s no hurry for anything, and I don’t ever want to think I “settled” with someone not right for me.
(As a semi-interesting side note, none of the marriage-kids situations arose from internet dating.)
I always wonder, If every woman -who posted that she WILL NEVER EVER date someone below a certain height even realizes how BAD she makes somebody feel on the other side of the screen? Can you imagine what it would feel like if 99 % of the men said I WILL NEVER DATE YOU, BECAUSE OF SOMETHING YOU COULDN’T CONTROL ? CAN YOU ? Or wait, you women probably think we have NO FEELINGS AT ALL.. What amazes me is that -you don’t even try to be understanding that IT”S NOT OUR FUCKING FAULT. You don’t even show any sympathy, most of you are ruthless. Thank you very much, I’m about to commit suicide now. My life is fucked up enough as it is, and after discovering how undesirable I truly am, I can’t take it anymore..good bye..
Men do judge you on things you can’t control! I’m a tall women & men short or tall don’t have interest in tall girls! It is like being a short man something we can’t control. I have a good job, am educated, and often get looked out (when sitting down or driving). I have pretty dark hair and good skin (& big boobs haha), but men are not at all interested. Oh well… You’re all pretty nasty anyway :)
Hi Jessica.
From my experience, a lot of tall women have no use for short guys and some even hate it when a short guy is within speaking range. This is coming from a guy who’s 5’6 BTW. Are you honestly saying both short and tall men don’t have interest in you? I’ve heard that one many times over like a broken record. Self-righteous tall women lie about their true feelings of short guy dissension meanwhile speaking out loudly that they date guys of all sizes. Tall women who let a short guy down easy will say that his height is her problem even though he’s a perfect fit in many other ways. The high heels excuse is a close second but in most cases is the first in the line of deal breakers that tall women have against shorter men. Dating a taller guy to feel feminine and protected is the third excuse against short men but it’s often number 1 on the deal breaking chart. Short guys are useless based on this principal because to her, his size will never make her feel petite.
You are right about one thing. Both men and women judge each other at face and body value. I’d have to strongly argue that it’s the women who do most of the critiquing and discarding though. You are the fashion sex. Tall women fight with their shorter sisters for the tall guy’s attention, get mad when they lose out to the shorter woman and hate on the left over short guys that are interested. I see it happen all the time and the reasoning is simple. You are taught and programmed from a very early age that short men are inferior and “tall, dark and handsome” is the gold standard in men. I have a decent body with fairly cut abs (not as cut from my tournament youth), strong legs and a good looking face from what I’ve been told. My lack of height trumps any success with women because they don’t allow themselves to be stimulated by my mind and my personality. When women see height and only height, nothing else about the man matters to her unless his wallet has significant weight. I guess this also speaks loudly about the kind of women who seek men for their height and nothing else. Gold-diggers with no character, personality or self-sufficiency.
So, what do you honestly do if you see a guy that’s attractive to you, regardless if he’s shorter or taller? Do you say nothing, do nothing, be nothing and let another woman beat you to him? Have you ever made the first move to ask a man out on a date or is that totally out of the question because you’re too old fashioned. You still wait for him to make the first move?
I don’t know if I’d date a shorter man ( or a tall one). Honestly I’ve come to a point where I’ve always been on my own & don’t really know another way… Like I’ve said men have never approached me in all these years… In HS they approached me to tell me mean things. Since then I’ve had a few insults from them too. I get compliments from women (and sometimes insults), elderly men, and once had a carload of 16 year olds call me a MILF (but I wasn’t standing up). That the total of my experience so?
No I’d never approach a man. I don’t know if it’s being old fashioned. I think us tall girls never really learn to flirt, look sexy, smile, or read men. Girls learn that stuff when they are young. As a tall girl being ridiculed the best I was hoping for was to be ignored. If a man looks at me I assume it is with disgust? So I generally hope to not be looked at!
Hi Jessica.
Sorry to hear about your experiences with guys. Highschool can be a truly horrible time for short guys and tall girls. Everyone wants to fit in and make friends but if you exceed or fall short of the average height, you’re immediately stigmatized, but not always in a bad way. A 6’1 girl when I was in HS was a star basketball player AND considered by all the guys to be in the top five best looking. She still is very hot today! I remember wanting to ask her out but lost to another guy who had more guts to approach her. He was barely an inch taller than me and he got her. College and post secondary can be worse but I like to believe that young adults gain a certain level of maturity by the time they graduate from highschool and know better not to insult people based on something they can’t control. I think you and I are in the same boat because over the years I’ve learned to accept that my short stature is not favourable among the ladies, especially the taller ones. It’s been proven time and time again in western culture.
A word of advice for you. Don’t always assume that when a guy is checking you out, he’s looking at you with digust unless you’re actually hoping he’s looking at you with disgust. A guy checking you out could mean that he’s totally in awe of your height and your presence which sometimes leads to his feelings of intimidation. Furthermore, some short guys don’t go near taller women because of preconceived notions of rejection which is wrong. Everyone knows that tall women mostly favour equally tall or taller men and are quick to reject the shorter guy who dare tries to talk to her. If you don’t want to be looked at or if you are simply not interested in a person, don’t make eye contact. This is how I decide whether or not to approach a woman. The expression on her face, if and when she locks eyes with me is the clearest indication of whether she’s interested in talking to me or not.
Remember this, tall women can be just as sexy and beautiful as a short woman. Me personally, I find taller women more attractive than shorter women and I’ve felt this way for a long time. You as a 5’11 woman have the long legs that many short people wish for. Understand that tall women have a grace and elegance that are the stuff of dreams too. Maybe you enjoy the single life more than being in relationships, but do your best not to shut out a guy that’s checking you out next time. He just might want to get to know you. So, if there’s a remote chance that you like what you see in him, there’s nothing wrong with throwing a wink and a smile back his way. And if he doesn’t approach you, too bad for him.
Apollo,
Well thanks for the advice. I’m too many years past trying (imagine dating for the first time Inyour mid 30’s). Mmmmm awkward for sure!!!! I’m more fascinated with perception than changing my reality. Oh my advice some girls/women can’t make eye contact simply can’t. We’re broken and don’t work like that ( I think a lot of tall women & abuse victims etc. ) point is it has nothing to do with you sometimes? :) peace out!
I just realized this post today and wanted to say…You haven’t met a person like me then. I think tall women are generally much more attractive than women who are short.
I’m 5’6 and didn’t know about this until today. I guess it’s cause I never had trouble dating women regardless of height, nor have I ever been told I was “Too short” by any woman. Then again, I don’t do online dating. I found all my women by just going out. Whether it be volunteering for my community, going to art galleries or coffee shops, etc. It just happens.
Tallest I been with was 6’1, it didn’t bother me one bit. Even if she did wear high heels. It didn’t last long, even though I found her physically attractive…Her personality was not to my liking.
So yeah, tall women ARE sexy!
Matt, you are absolutely right. Tall women are totally sexy! I absolutely love confident, tall women who don’t judge me by how tall I stand. The tallest woman I’ve dated was a 6’1 beauty like you have, even though it was very brief. She left me for a 5’3 guy that she was involved with previously. That’s right! A taller woman left me for a guy even shorter LOL! Her heart was more with him and I wasn’t going to put her at fault for that or fight him for her attention. Yeah it kinda hurt, but I still appreciated her time and the fact that she was straight up with me. Honesty goes a long way rather than playing the disappearing/ex-communication act that a lot of women see nothing wrong with doing to guys. It’s a method of expressing disinterest in a person that has more to do with hurt than truth.
There are lots of tall women who can’t give a fully grown 5’6 guy like me a fraction of the respect they give to tall guys. As far as they are concerned, I don’t qualify as a MAN and never will. They’d sooner call me a half man or little boy and relegate me to a permanent state of puberty. Manliness goes hand in hand with height and weakness is associated with with being short according to these women. Frankly, it doesn’t bother me anymore despite most of them still hopelessly devoted to landing a tall guy. Women who hold these beliefs are the real headcases and they aren’t worth the time. It doesn’t matter how attractive they are or how tall they are.
Hey Jessica,
From my experience, there are two main reasons shorter guys tend not to go after taller women:
The first is that a lot of them get sucked into the same weird societal thing which says “it would be weird.” It’s become so expected that you can easily find dozens of articles talking about how Tom Cruise is shorter than Katy Holmes. It’s something that gets wired into a lot of people and is hard to fight against. I know this because I used to have that attitude a lot, which basically became cured when I was targeted by a woman 4 inches taller than me. What I figured out pretty quickly was that it’s one of the dumbest reasons ever to reject someone. It literally made NO difference to anything dating-wise, and since have dated several taller women.
The other issue is that even the shorter guys who don’t personally care about it just assume that taller women will have that attitude, and don’t bother trying. What might come off as aloofness or standoffishness might actually be closer to shyness or taking what appears to be the easier road.
I saw one of your other comments where you mentioned not wanting to make the first move (as the woman I mentioned above did), but there’s a big difference between actually making the move and being super-flirty so the guy knows you’re interested. There’s nothing unladylike about extra smiling and laughing at his dumb jokes, or doing the “subtle” arm touch thing that makes men’s hearts leap. The truth is most men are pretty dense when it comes to reading signals (you basically need to hand us a sign and smack upside the head), and that’s pretty much how all those women who are constantly “getting” hit on are doing it. In reality, women pretty much always make the first move. It just doesn’t look that way.
Also, for what it’s worth, I didn’t “seriously” start dating until my 30’s either for a variety of reasons (mostly from extreme shyness up to my mid- to late-20’s). You’re not the only one. And you’d be surprised how little even the people who seem to have it all worked out actually know about anything.
Jessica, why don’t you go somewhere else to have your pity-party? Unreal that you turn this serious discussion (someone literally just threatened to commit suicide) into something about you. The fact of the matter, is that most short guys have been passed up on so many occasions, that they would consider most nearly any girl that shows them a genuine interest– and certainly one who is fit, good looking, with big boobs– short guys almost NEVER reject a girl based on her height (probably because we know how much it hurts to get judged so ruthlessly day in and out).
Believe me, not a single guy here is buying this whole “short guys dont like me because I’m tall” bit. I’m 5’5, and my last gf was 5’11 and a runway model. You think I would turn down a model just because she has a few inches on me?
I’m a short guy, ‘heighting in’ at 5’5. I’ve got a naturally muscular build, and perhaps I set myself up for failure to begin with by really finding taller women (around 5’7 or 5’8) to be absolutely gorgeous. Truth is, I’m a legs man, and taller women tend to have (by default) longer legs.
Either way, that’s not really the point. I’ve never lied on an Internet dating site, and I’ve had a few serious relationships in my past – all of these women being taller than me. Never did they ever indicate that my height was an issue – in fact, I have never had it mentioned to me by any girl. Only men such as coworkers or friends have ever made jokes about my height. As a result, I’ve never even considered how important height is to most women until fairly recently.
I made best friends with a guy not too long ago, and our personalities are so similar it’s quite shocking. However, professionalism and appearance (of the things I can CONTROL) have always been important to me, so I’ve always been the better dressed of the two of us. Also, i tend to be the talkative, friendly one when we talk to women, while his large height and he – just stand there.
Within these few months – I’ve heard all too many times, ‘I think your friend is cute.’ All of the sudden I’ve realized that it was his additional 6 inches that did all of his talking for him. Now, I think he is a fantastic guy, but am I upset that he gets more dates because he’s six inches taller? Yes.
Recently I have started wearing lifts in my shoes, and what started as an ‘experiment’ has proven my suspicions. I get much more attention when I am ‘5’8 than 5’5. Do I lie about it? No. I will tell anyone up front that I am wearing lifts, and oddly enough – I still get more attention from people KNOWING I am not the height they perceive, than I ever did embracing my shortness. I guess just standing eye level with girls rather than below them is enough to meet their ‘protective needs’ from a man.
So I firmly say, short men – wear lifts. From experience, it works. I wouldn’t hide it – the truth comes out. But as far as being able to meet a women’s needs for height, however superficial they may be, it helps. As well as the added confidence of height you will feel just being able to look into someone’s eyes without looking up.
Just…never…lie. I will tell a 5’8 girl to her face that I am 5’5, even as she eyes me up and down saying ‘you have to be taller than that.’
These are just my opinions. I would be glad to hear what other people have to say about this.
In addition, I love it when girls wear heels, I don’t understand why a woman ‘can’t’ wear heels if she’s with a shorter guy. If you’re already with the guy, don’t feel like you can’t wear heels. He might even like it! Usually if he’s a short guy and he’s wanting to date know already knowing you’re taller than him, he’s not going to care if you throw on some more inches. I can only assume the girls are more worried about how other people are going to look at them and their short-stack boyfriends.
Hi Romulus,
Women care a whole lot more about what everyone else around them says. They place extremely high value on public perception of the man she’s dating. It makes no sense but it is the truth. Poor shorter guy never understands who his lady is trying to impress when she’s constantly looking around in a nervous state to see who catches her out on the town with the short guy. The only opinion that should matter to her really, is his. I believe women dread the thought of crossing paths with a complete stranger or group of people she doesn’t know for the second or third time out who saw her on a date with a man shorter than she is. These people have no importance to her relationship and are likely the ones who made fun of her and her man the first time so her fears become reality if she sees these people again. The sad thing about all this is she’ll drop her man like a bad habit real quick because she can’t deal with the negative attention his lack of height brings. It is really stupid, but you wouldn’t believe the amount of thought women put into everyone else of little importance, who they’ve never met and are so eager to get a high report card from.
It’s totally different for the woman who strictly dates tall guys. At every opportunity she will do her very best to showcase him to the public while at the same time making it very clear to everyone in the room that the tall, prized man on her arm belongs to her and her only. For some women they take great pride in doing this to feed their ego and image. I’ve seen women crap all over the shorter guy they are out on a date with, treat him like complete garbage while trying to keep him concealed. In some cases the woman runs to the exits on a bathroom break and leaves the poor short guy with the bill because she doesn’t want to be seen exiting with him. At the same time, I’ve seen women walk into a restaurant proudly with her tall beau and prance around finding tables just to make sure everyone got a good look at him.
As for high heels, I really couldn’t care less if the woman I’m with wears them. In fact, I’ll tell her to rock her heels as much as she wants with me because I’m comfortable with her wearing them. What I don’t like is the 6 inch or more stripper heels or hooker boots. A friend of mine once told me to be mindful of women who constantly wear those pointy high heels. They have the ugliest feet! I’ve seen it from experience.
Reality sucks I feel sorry for short guys ESP really short guys … Under 5’7. 90 percent of women would never consider a short guy ESP when they are attractive and educated. If there are many tall guys chasing after them why would they ever consider a short man? No amount of expensive clothes can look good on u whereas a tall guy can wear sweats and a hoodie and still manage to look attractive.
Hi Leesa,
I don’t need expensive clothes to make my 5’6 self look good, but I can see where you’re coming from. You have your opinion and there’s nothing wrong with it. Short guys to you will never look good in quality or decent clothes right? Just because we’re short. So I guess we should stick to working on trying to make a hoodie and sweats look good on us even though we can’t look good in them according to you? That’s perfectly ok because the only women who ever told me I look good in a suit was my mom and gramma, and they matter the most. Aside from the usual gangster and mob compliments from my friends, no opinions mattered more to me than coming from two of the most important women in my life. In fact, all the women in my immediated family, sisters included told me that any man short or tall in a suit that’s well tailored to his size with the right shirt, polished shoes and tie, looks hot. Women who think good clothes only belong on tall men shouldn’t have a fashion opinion. Good fashion is for everyone who desires to look clean and feel good wearing them.
Well you really made my night. Thank you for the awesome comments.
I would like to add that superficiality is a good way to maintain a solid relationship. NOT!!! After awaking from being drag’d through the mud from bad relationships by chasing after clothes and shoes et., you’ll hopefully grow up and find that real relationship tactics are needed to produce a solid founding for growth. Now because you’re media struck, you’re conscious is tainted by what’s fed to on a daily bases of what a man is. Boys buy clothes to look good for women. A man will dress to impress, but for his own personal gain which is lookin good and feeling good. Boys don’t buy pampers for the baby. They buy clothes to impress women. Since women have set the standard of how the game works, they now complain that its not working fully. So, here it is I come along (5’7″ in height) and lite-skin’d (which is another total problem with Black women) with good financial standing, dress well, and take care of my babies (because I’m a single father of two) gets pushed aside because of a standard that no one can tell me where it originated from.
According to women, men are 6 foot tall. If I had to go buy yalls standards of what a man is, then I would have to stop taking care of these babies and return being a boy. But we can’t have that can we? You’ll take me to court for not being a man. Sounds double standard correct? I salute men of all heights who take care of home and their babies. These are men!
Here’s the bottom line… men do men things, and boys play. It appears women have a not so clear concept of what a man is. In high school we chased after who looks the best, and wore the best clothes. It seems to me that many women haven’t upgraded their mentality from high school, and call the shots from this teenage mentality. Thus we have men that are 5’11” wishing he were taller listening to teenage tactics. I’m only 5’7″ and guaranteed I walk tall and feel wonderful about me. This has come from me tapping into my spiritual side.
So date white women who lIke light skinned black men of many heights…Well a big black man is better but a short black man is still “bigger” than a tall white man tee hee…..
Your welcome Brandon!
I don’t get upset or waste time on women like Leesa above. Don’t know how old she is, but immature, pubescent minds like hers produce these childish posts. She is right to a degree about the numbers against shorter men.
“Under 5’7. 90 percent of women would never consider a short guy ESP when they are attractive and educated”
Here’s the good news. The women in that 10 percent category who do consider shorter guys are often the finest of the fine! Some of them are in the very tall, over 6’0 range and have no problems dating a guy who’s much shorter.
I have no use for women who won’t acknowledge my 5’6 frame. Let the tall guys deal with these girls who want them solely for their height. It’s just one less f**k buddy for me because my tall guy friends don’t have much relationship use for these women either. She can’t be that good of a person if she’s willing to sacrifice everything just for height.
I hope the script flip on shorter women. They expect men to be taller than them in dating and at the same time expect taller men to recognize them while they’re shorter. All I see is selfishness and double standards. Most likely, if a woman’s profile starts of with, “I want a tall man…”, then they’ll get what they deserve regarding him cheating on her. The tall guy knows he’s a hot commodity and will get every piece he can to name as a trophy. Jealous? No… just a bit concerned that women are setting bad examples on chasing after physical parts than quality of a person. A lot of women want everything long and tall. I have daughters and every man should be concerned about this frivolous-teenage mentality. Do you think I’m teaching my daughters to chase after long and tall? I teach them to have quality understanding and choose good attributes concerning a mate, whether short of tall.
If women are gonna chase after tall men as trophies to make them look good… then they shouldn’t be surprised if men use them for sex adding to their list of sexual trophies. Surprisingly, most women don’t have an issue with this. So when you become pregnant as he wishes to continue his whoring mission, because you made yourself available for it, you’ll want him man up. But remember, you chased after his height. Height doesn’t preclude someone being a jerk whether short or tall. Height is height. How in the world can someone make such a careless life choice off of height? Even if a women said she would date only short men… that’s stupid! The whole idea is teenage mentality! Please grow up… you’re teaching this nonsense to your children!
Hey MBlue, nice posts!
I’d like to add that when these pregnant women demand the talls guys who knocked them up to take responsiblity for their actions, it’s usually a WIN-WIN situation for her, especially if it goes to the courts. Women are taking men to the cleaners for every red cent and the money is not entirely going to the welfare of the child. There’s lots of neglected, unwanted children who are turning up dead in freezers, dumpsters or vermin infested factories that are abandoned. Meanwhile she’s partying it up with her friends spending his dollars only to later complain to the courts that she’s not getting enough from him to support her fat ego and the child. The child suffers the most in the end, followed by the father who’s been shut out. Don’t get me wrong, there are enough deadbeat dads of all sizes(mostly tall guys) making more babies with the same height demanding short ladies. So it does go both ways but moreso against the man.
You are totally right about women and the teenage mentality. They seem to hold on to it and carry it well into their adult years. I’m very thankful that I’m not sitting in a crowded courtroom waiting on divorce proceedings, child support payment arrangements, custody battles or visitation rights. Women with the mindset of a grade eight student define themselves and their relationships with men by his height and not much else.
I’m actually glad these women want nothing to do with me when I think of the big picture. Sometimes to the point where I feel sorry for the tall guys they’ve used and abused and vice-versa. These are the guys who’s pockets are drying, wallets are thinning and their sanity is being tested, all because they’ve been blessed with height? NO THANK-YOU!!!
Sorry for the late response… I totally agree with you. Let them be blessed with the mess while I receive a more sane women who’s mentally grounded! AGREED!!!
I’m 5′ 3″ and my wife is 5′ 5″. This blog has me ready to go out and buy her a Ferrari. Wtf. Maybe it has to do with the fact that we met late in our 30’s and were past a lot of the superficial cosmetic fixations. Or maybe I should kiss the ground she walks on and realize the she is the only woman in the world that likes me.
Reading this has been a real eye opener. I had no idea how superficial and ignorant the majority of women are. It must be genetic. They cannot control it.
Well it’s on both ends females wants taller mens but me a 5’6″ rather have taller women and thick so shorter women don’t like me I move on it’s in only black and white race of some most mexican females no problem well I approach the most beautiful females at ease so have that mouth piece lol
Jess,
We are homegirls lol!!!!! I feel like you, u are me! Lol…. I wish had a friend like u, we could understand eachother…..
Ila
Indeed as there are few woefully tall girls haha… You seem to live a more interesting life though!!! It sucks being tall & female indeed!
Where are all these great, single, short men? I am a very well educated, attractive, athletic woman and I love shorter men, but they never ask me out! I am not alone because several of my girlfriends prefer shorter men as well. Maybe shorter men are missing the obvious and not asking out women that they should be. Not all women prefer tall men!
Hey Kim
“Gimme some kinda sign girl, oh my baby, show us that you like us, alright now.”
I’ve changed the lyrics a bit, but it’s basically the same Brenton Wood hit. All it takes for me to approach a taller woman or any woman for that matter is getting a positive sign from her. Always a good start isn’t it?! A smile, a wink of the eye or a nod of the head in appreciation of me is more than good enough. If you really wanna be blunt about it, a slight boob-brush or bounce of your hips against mine will totally get me started. I honestly don’t go near any tall woman with the evil short guy hate in her eye. I’ve seen that look many times and subsequently been shot down for trying. In fact the harshest rejections have all come from the tall ladies. You say shorter men are missing the obvious? Last I checked, tall women hate us short guys and fight the short girls for the tall guys attention just the same. Maybe you and your lady friends are different and actually like shorter guys but I tend to believe that you are rare and non-existent. Where’s the proof? It’s not as if tall women/short men couples dominate the earth, but you definitely see lots of the tall men/short women couples. Furthermore, you just don’t regularly see or hear about any taller woman prefering a shorter guy unless she’s completely devoid of image, isn’t concerned about public reaction and doesn’t care a single bit about his height or how society paints the picture perfect couple. Maybe she’s completely turned on by shorter guys, who knows. It’s still not a regular occurence for taller women to be attracted to any man that’s shorter than her unless she wants to be laughed at and ridiculed.
Thank you Kim, for indeed coming forward and contributing to this discussion. If you speak the truth about liking shorter guys, that gives me a flicker of hope that I might meet a tall, lovely woman like you in this lifetime. BTW, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with going against the norm and approaching the guy first. If the shorter guy in question is not interested in you, that’s his loss. A least you tried, so move on to the next guy. Just please realize and understand that there are other short guys in this world that would love to experience the warm embrace of a taller woman. I’m one of them!
Tall girls are the least self confident most self conscious trainwrecks! You tiny dudes must be hard up motherfuckers because like you we are bottom of the “food chain”! Still I’d rather fuck myself than any of you! A women has to feel like a women or just nit bother with it! I’s rather lick a short bitches ***** than mess with a shirt dude! Even unwanted big lesbians have standards!
Former model English n
English not too good & this thing cut me off? Well no… TRUE…
most men detest tall women but when you find the right one they love our long legs & extra tight mmm… Well we aren’t used up like short females! I have felt the hatred & disgust too! But well I still find a good man from time to time? Leanardo, Mr. Clooney, Tom, mmmmm wow three men oh Tom Brady too you are the only men we love!!! Lol haha!!! Kris Humphries, Will Smith( worked out good with you’re hideous lady) & Shaq must die! Just kidding pedophiles have rights too!
So short men can’t approach tall girls & tall girls can’t approach anyone? Short men are turned down by girls short & tall ( I don’t believe this)? Tall men rule!? Short girls are everybody’s dream!? Sad! No hate just wow & lame! But ( not a sentence starter) life is what it is … No more,,,,, no less…
Kim,
A lot of short men have met up with a version of Rosa mentioned in this blog and have given up on women because we don’t want to meet another version of Rosa. Some women really get angry at short men who dare to even talk to them and sometimes short men have had the woman begin harassing him or file a sexual harassment complaint. Some have even attacked short men on blogs, facebook posts, or started bad rumors abouth them as a form of retaliation!
The scary thing is, there are tons of short women like Rosa who have real genuine hate for short guys and sometimes just as much, if not more hate for other short girls who compete with them. I know it’s wrong for me to say this but I sometimes revel in playing the role of the heightist, bastard, asshole, SOB, whatever you want to call me, anytime I encounter short, wised-assed, Rosa-like women. Not that she would care anyway and I don’t waste too much time being a jerk or annoying to them. The joke does get old quick. After a while my attention turns to the beautiful, elegant woman with the incredible personality, tastefully dressed not to overimpress. Tall and short chicks alike are all approachable when they don’t have attitude written on their faces. Not all young women are stuck in the highschool mentality and the smart ones usually don’t see height, weight or skin colour when judging the quality of a man. Now, I don’t go actively hating on short women but I can say that I honestly have less use for them as I’ve gotten older. I’ve had enough unpleasant experiences with shorter women and it’s not like they look my way in the first place. The majority still crave tall men and nothing more. There are some tall women who are amazingly friendly, beautiful people that just need to get past the shy stage like some short guys. These are the types that don’t really care about a man’s height. In this group, there are some girls who stand well over 6’0 feet who actively pursue guys way shorter than they are, some up to a foot or more. I’ve seen couples like this hand in hand and I think it’s amazing. On the other hand, some tall women are the biggest of b!tches that have a capital “B” hat permanently glued to their heads. I try to avoid these ladies and go by what the expression on her face says. If she’s interested, she’ll give me enough of a sign to invite me over and chat with her.
Since shorter men are generally of a smaller build, they seem verrrrry conscious of any excess body weight on a woman. Like most men (excepting the ones posting here), they want to be physically larger than their woman, so staying slim will have a big impact on whether or not that cute short guy asks you out.
Hi Desirae,
You can keep chowin’ down on squirrels and dive into your box of pleasure toys LOL! Are you a new lesbian? Straight chick gone 180? Bisexual heightist who only fools around with tall men and tall women? No worries from me, that’s OK, hahaha! I think it safe to conclude that your opinion of short guys doesn’t speak for all of the tall ladies of the world. I’m glad it doesn’t. Forgive me but are you a teenager perhaps stuck in highschool with fears of being laughed out of the prom because you feel like a giant beast compared to everyone else? You could very well be a tall, lovely, long legged beautiful woman who all the guys look at and want to get with, no doubt. To me you just sound like a big “little” girl that needs to grow up a lot more mentally. Your language, syntax and how you’re disrespecting short guys here is indicative of your personality. FYI tall GIRLS are usually immature train wrecks with confidence issues just like you said. They closely follow the superficialities of the red carpet and all that is pretentious in the world of Hollywood. Tall WOMEN on the other hand are beautiful, mature, educated, confident and considerate of everyone, short, tall, big, and small.
Happy Holidays.
Apollo,
I have no idea if Desirae is in HS.. But if she is let’s play nice & not ask her if she’s scared of being a “giant” at prom. Just as we all feel sad about the height we have or don’t have this girl & many others clearly suffer I’n various ways from the gift or curse of height! If I could “abra kadabra” we’d change heights & you’d be 5’11 & I’d be a “lil girl” for the first time but life isn’t like that so we suffer it out & I think short men & tall women should live in harmony… Truly though I see short men out & about daily ( with wives, girlfriends, buying clothes, shopping for groceries) & you all seem fine to me! I have pretty much sworn off leaving my house other than necessary because people must constantly harass & stare at me due to my height. I don’t know this girls situation but I can imagine if it’s like mine her total dismal frustration!
Oh & Colette let’s the two of us (plus 2 or 3 other tall girls) get together & kidnap Tom Brady!!! (we are not as strong as you all think so it take a few of us!!) jk….
Tom Brady is the standard! So like..all other men (tall or short) should not bother, of this I agree! Finally, I’m down to help BUT since he is one of the FEW tall men who likes tall chicks lets “let” Giselle have him! Giselle Rocks!!! LOL
This is probably going to be the weirdest response ever!
I’m 5’7″ and from a foreign country where I’m actually taller than the average man. However, people there marry within their own religion and I belong to a minority religious community there. What’s even worse, I’m not a believer. Spiritual, maybe, but religious no. As you can tell, I’d be a misfit there. So, I moved to the US in my early 20s. And where do I move? To an ethnically Dutch majority town. I ended up being the shortest man there. That was the first time I ever became conscious about my height although I still did not think of it as a negative because the vast majority of women were still shorter than me.
Well, I tried to date, and as you can tell, I got smirks and sneers from 100% of the women I asked out. At first, I did not correlate my height to the rejections. I was an expat after all. There were those “other” (race, religion, etc) issues to blame.
A few years passed and I moved to a major metropolitan city. And as is the case with life in such places, I joined internet dating sites. For the following 8 years, I was always a member of some dating site or the other – match, eharmony, okcupid, chemistry, perfectmatch, … even yahoo personals! I read close to 15,000 profiles (just checked the number from my accounts – still open).
About 50% of the women excluded my ethnicity and religion (agnostic/atheist – more reviled previously than now). And about 40% excluded be based on my height, and the excuse for most of them was that their heels were more important than their potential partner’s qualities. That left 10% who did not exclude me in their preferences in an ideal partner. This was on match.com.
Eharmony was slightly better. The site does not (or did not) have an easy way for women to exclude me by height, but they could still exclude me based on religion.
Anyway, I reached out to about 2,500 women across all dating sites. About 250 responded. And I met precisely one woman on a date.
Note that I was also progressively balding. My photos was up to date. My height was my real height. I do have a PhD. As my profile said, I did win a national tennis tournament and I did stand 3rd in a marathon in my country. And my profile was hilarious, at least going by the majority of the 250 who indicated so in their messages to me. The one woman I met told me on my first date that I was too lean (she was overweight, and I did not care) and that we would not be a good match.
Well, unrelated to the above, I do have gender dysphoria. Going by the shock in the faces of friends who learned this about me, nobody had a clue. I was not particularly girly. However, I was struggling with this issue since childhood – way too much body hair and hair loss.
So, not seeing any point in dating anymore, I set out on a journey of self-discovery. For the following two years, I went to school to get my MBA. And then set out on an entrepreneurial adventure and a humanitarian mission for 3 years. As a woman. By the time I settled back into a regular job last year, nobody had a clue that I’m not a genetic woman.
Anyway, I started dating again. I mean women. Lesbian/Bi women.
I noticed something very different among these women. They care most about whether you are masculine or feminine. They do care about whether you look good or not. They are more secure about themselves and about their sexuality and about their bodies than straight women. And I learned that the extent to which straight women fuss about their partner’s height is totally ridiculous!
Especially among bi women, I observe this very common statement in their profiles (copied from a profile I still see on a dating site) –
“If you are a woman, please be femme at least in attitude. If you are a man, don’t write to me unless you are 6′ tall or over”.
This is the extent to which if you are a straight man, your height will be held against you in dating!
I’ve had lots more responses as a lesbian woman to exactly the same online dating profile I used to have as male, except with my gender changed. To the canned questions on eharmony, I even gave exactly the same responses I used to give as a man. In the last one year, I’ve had 23 dates since February 2011. I’ve never had sex, ever (yes, I’m an agnostic/atheist saving myself for the right one however ridiculous that might seem to you).
As a curious person, I thought I should figure out what dating life looks like for a straight woman. I’m not sexually interested in men. Speed dating sounded like a fantastic idea.
During both of the speed-dating events I attended, I noticed how straight women were so self-conscious and insecure about themselves. All that they could tell me during the breaks was that I looked so much better than them and that I seemed so much more confident and happier than them. I noticed how almost all of their eyes lit up and how easily smiles appeared on their faces when they were at the tables with tall stereotypically handsome men, while the shorter men had to be hilarious to get the same reaction.
These straight women were too superficial about themselves and about their potential partners. I do not want to generalize to the entire straight women population, but now as a woman, I’m ashamed of being clubbed into the superficial category.
You have to note that my concentration was on the women around, not on the men. Hey, don’t shoot the observer just as you don’t shoot the messenger;, I was on a study mission, not a husband-finding mission.
At the end of those two speed-dating events and three straight singles holiday parties over the last month, I realized that I made the right decision to be true to myself and to date gay/bi women as a woman.
I am happier because these women allow me to be myself. I can be vulnerable to my dates. I don’t have to exaggerate anything to impress my dates with faking anything. I don’t get shot down for my height or my physical features … quite the opposite, and therein now I have a challenge – I have to eliminate the ones who are attracted to me only for my physical features.
This is not to say that all of you short men should be women. I had a gender issue, which I needed to solve for myself (not for anyone else). You don’t have ALL of the same struggles as I did in life.
Do yourselves a favor and do what you enjoy in life and be exactly who you are! You might think of your short height as a problem, but it will help you filter out shallow women who would be wrong for you. Women (and men) do not come with the word “shallow” written on their foreheads. You can only find them and eliminate them from your dating pool if they behave in a shallow manner. Your height gives you the benefit of not having to deal with shallow people because the shallow ones will eliminate themselves from your dating pool. You only have to pick from the rest.
Now if you are looking for casual sex, I admit that this may not help you much. However, if you are looking for a LTR, your short height is a boon, not a handicap. If 50 years from now, you want to look back and cherish the one you are with, you have to find a relationship that lasts. Everyone gets older and everyone will have more physical flaws as they age. Only the women who can see beyond your height and your other physical features to the traits important for a relationship will be the right ones to keep.
WTF o.O
You’ve made every forum comment I’ve read up until now seem like paint drying.
Ok, I’m still here.. damn it, don’t even have the guts to end my life. It’s really sad reading how 5’5-5’7 guys here keep tellign stories that they struggle and mention being 5-6 5’7 like the worst height ever. Im’ 5’3 so where do I stand then? if 5’7 guys struggle so much, what the hell can I do? I’m also skinny and poor. Not my fault ,I was growing up in a poor family and never really had access to healthy food. However my dad is 5’7 and I got to be 5’3 (I’m 20)God was mean to me apparently.. Im not in USA and to all those who point out “western culture” well guess what- It’s the same in the eastern european culture. The only exception could be -asia and latin america where people seem shorter than average. But even then, I heard that in South Korea everyone’s obsessed with appearance and these days they’re getting taller too. Anyways, after reading these stories I don’t even see the point in trying to date someone. I will only be humiliated. I HAVE to lie about my height and wear lifts to be at least 5’5,otherwise I’m considered a freak, but it doesn’t really improve things as much and I’ll be discovered anyways.. I’m very sensitive and don’t have freaking muscle builts like everyone here keeps saying -Oh im short but with a good built. I can’t even afford going to the gym or eating properly..I had to drop out of the uni because parents couldn’t pay for tuition and I’m still in search of a job but nobody wants to hire a dropout in my country(russia). What have I ever done to deserve this? I’d do a lot to be 5’6 at least..But whatever I do it will never be enough..I’m crippled for life now, so just a note to you all 5’6ers and above- count your lucky stars and stop whining..
And one more thing that’s always surprising to me how everyone thinks just because they are short, they have to excel at everything else. Like they have to be perfect in other areas..I don’t strive to be a highly paid employee or some extraordinary human being. I don’t want to look like a manlet with a abs and muscles.I simply want to be average but apparently that lowers my chances at having a relationship even more, since I’m nothing special AND short .. I’m tired of this bullshit. If I’m destined to die alone, so be it..less humiliation for me..
Alex, I am in no position to speak of your situation and all I can offer to you are a few words of advice, the view from my experiences, and encouragement to not end your life. Suicide is the cheapest and easiest way out of anything in this world. You owe it to yourself to find your “inner” self and search for happiness in every situation without needing a woman to justify it. Yeah, by virtue of my 5’6 frame, I probably shouldn’t talk to you about my situation because I’m three inches taller? Well, let me tell you that my dating life has been fraught with rejection and discrimination. I know my height is a serious concern for a lot of women because the honest ones told me straight up in their words “I’m sorry but I can’t date someone shorter than me.” Sometimes the women were nice about it, lied by saying they were already involved with someone and used other compliments to expedite her rejection of me. Stuff like, “you’re a good looking guy, you’ll find a good woman,” or “any woman would be lucky to have a decent guy like you,” or ” you are really cute, but I’m so sorry you’re just not my type.” A tall chick who’s not interested in you, but wants to let you down easy will tell you that your lack of height is “her problem,” not yours. She’ll even tell you that you’re a good looking guy while playing the #1 broken record hit song “there’s someone out there for everyone.” Shucks, I know there’s nothing wrong with me but Hollywood tells you what they think is wrong with me!
What I’ve done over the past couple of years is take a step back from the world of women, dating, and re-evaluated myself as a person entirely. Loving myself, accepting my height and treating others the way I want to be treated is a life long lesson. I do sympathize with you though. It is very hard to be a man in this world if you are short. Even worse now if you’re under the 5’10 feminist preference limit. Funny how women are naturally shorter than men, strive for equality, yet the really short ones thumb their noses at short guys who are taller than they are? Not that I”m trying to dissuade you, but sex and relationships with women are overrated as far as I’m concerned. Look at the divorce rate and check the average length of a marriage contract before the two parties run to the courts to get it annulled. If it makes you feel any better, I didn’t lose my virginity until I was 25( now 40), and quite honestly I would have kept it had I known more about the sex and the woman that I what getting involved with. All the years of being denied, forced to listen to the dirty love stories from my friends and watching them go on dates wasn’t worth the sexual disappointment I had to endure moments later. To make a long story short, my first time chicky just layed on the bed and expected me to pleasure her without giving any love back to me. It was disgusting, boring and unrewarding actually. I have never climaxed from sex and I can count the number of times I’ve had sex after that on two hands. Death grip whacking might have played a factor there. Only once was sex a memorable and remotely pleasurable experience. Trust me, YOU AREN’T MISSING MUCH, unless a woman isn’t shy about being an experienced but polite “porn slut,” in the bedroom and does her best to share the pleasure. People talk about 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 month dry spells? I didn’t even know what a “dry spell” was until I stopped putting women on my priority list. Try FIVE years without as much as a kiss or a hug. During that time I healed myself mentally, re-introduced myself to my love of music, film, art and amazing food!
Avoid the typical bar fare, clubby type chicks that are looking to go home with the tallest guy in the place that makes all the other girls jealous of her. Sometimes they don’t even care about the guy they leave the bar with. He’s just a weekly piece of “ego food” for her. Engage in social activities or save what you can financially and sacrifice your life to join a discussion group that stimulates your mind. Enrol yourself in a course, exercise your brain, re-educate yourself to new technologies. Don’t make women a priority when making these choices. This is about YOU and feeling better about yourself in order to gain confidence to socialize with women. I know, I know, I know……..confidence isn’t measured equally by women! Tall guys with confidence are bravehearts. Short guys with confidence are Napoleon’s cousins. There is a big difference between having confidence and showing arrogance. One makes you look like a jerk, the other makes you look like the most important man in the room. Also, do your best to clean yourself up and make your best features stand out. Be strong and keep your head up. Suicide isn’t the answer.
Best of luck to you.
Ok, sorry but your post it too long and you’re doing exactly what I was talking about. Telling story how bad it is being 3 inches taller? Seriously? Please don’t talk about it like you’re in the same boat as me (because you’re not) or complain how many times you’ve been rejected, trying to explain to me how BAD you have it at 3 inches taller. Is that supposed to make me feel better? Imagine yourself 3 inches shorter and reading someone who’s taller and complains about it like it’s the end of the world..At 5’6 I would’ve been happy, that’s all I have to say. Too bad you don’t appreciate it..
Hi Al,
Truly you are a condolence for all of us on the short chain. And yes I can speak I’m 5’3. And yes I’m the typical well built, confident little guy people hate. But again as I had posted previously. That confidence that your missing is your greatest enemy. Most women are so self conscience about their appearance and/or height weight etc that if they pick up those vibes on you, your dead before you take off. It’s a primal need. The feeling protected, the man will resolve it thing. But if your walking around with this end of the world attitude because I’m short you wont even have to to try. Your psychologically sending them away as it is buddy.
We should all remember something when we are here tearing ourselves to shreds. We will truly be what people think about us if we allow it.
Look how many cripples have done astonishing things in this world. You have all your faculties and limbs, many are born without these things, should they to kill themselves for not being perfect?
I am a teacher and I have had wave upon wave of students tall men and women who are more insecure about themselves than I will ever be. I don’t envy their height, I resent their “weakness”.
And yeah all you tall loving men women, divorced or beaten or used by the tall man of your dreams take note. It’s really hilarious when you come to think about it. All this social approval. When it comes down to what’s really important most people lack a lot of it. Morales, values etc.
As it seems it’s more important to be socially “accepted” than to be really happy with someone “worth it” at home.
Look at this world we live in.. it’s 2012 and we are still fighting over size, color and creed, and fictional boarders on 3 major land masses on a rock mostly covered in water, and last time I checked we still ALL have the same DNA strands.
And then people wonder why we are not visited or helped by superior beings..how could we, any advanced civilization would still deem us as…savages…
Peace..
Hey Alex,
Sorry if I’ve rubbed you the wrong way. I apologize. My point was not to offend you or attempt to compare or discuss your situation with mine. All I was offering to you was what I’ve experienced in life as a 5’6 guy. To be honest, not quite 5’6, maybe 5’5 and a half. Yeah, if you want to say it’s ALOT harder for you at 5’3, continue doing so. I don’t know how much success in life “wallowing in sorrow” will get you. I took a step back from the dating world because I felt that that was the best way for me to clear my mind of my frustrations. I haven’t actively involved myself but it’s not like I’m absent. Relationships with women doesn’t make a man a MAN. Life has a lot more to offer rather than making it with women the sole focus of your existence. Besides, I’ve heard enough women say “any man under 6’0 tall isn’t a man.” How are we not in the same boat from that? I used to get really ticked when I heard that stuff from chicks. I don’t anymore because I realized those women are shallow and immaterial. Sometimes I laugh it off. Maybe that’s what you need, some humour in your life. You sound like you’re an educated person Alex and can do better for yourself. If it means making sacrifices in life to get ahead, DO IT!
Suicide is still a cheap way out Alex. It’s not something you politely joke about either. Depression is a serious issue for a lot of people, tall, short, skinny or fat. I’ve learned to deal with depression and avoid the typical first question of the shrink. “When was the last time you had sex?” It’s just not that important to me anymore. If you want to stay suicidal and depressed, make sex a priority in life, but don’t say I didn’t tell you to pay for it. I have a hard time believing a good sex trade worker would refuse money from you. If you want a relationship with a woman who’s not a prostitute, you better do something about yourself in order to fix that. Look at yourself in the mirror. To sit and do nothing means you’re accepting what you get in life. Peace.
Hey Alex,
Read the above post from “Someone Somewhere.” How long is that one.
Appolo,
I still don’t think we’re in the same boat. You are obviously more attractive than I am thanks to those 3 inches. I know how attraction changes with every inch. I become much more better-looking at 5’6 but only with the help of ‘magic’ shoes and I hate that when I take them off ,people see real me. It’s not only about women, but they’re feeding the fire so to speak. I don’t read full posts when it starts with -“oh I’m 5’6-5’7” and then continues with stories of rejections. My friend is 5’6, nothing special and he’s quiet like me yet his GF is stunning and they’ve been together for several years now. Same with my cousin…But 5’3 is just ugly and extremely unattractive on a guy. Have you noticed what women say when they are open to dating shorter guys, they usually mean 5’5 5’6 as the shortest. You never hear 5’3 becase It’s considered freakishly short and I agree. It’s also about liking what I see in the mirror, and I hate seeing this little child all the time..Too bad he’s still there even if I’m not looking…So yeah It’s A LOT harder for me and you have no idea how it affects my life, especially in these teen years. But thanks for trying to help, even though I’m afraid too late for that.
Move to Flordia, Mexico or Japan & you will be fine! I see short men every day as happy as can be ( yes at 5’3). I know it won’t make you feel better if you are serious at all. People tell me that other 5’11 women are happy. Does it make me happier? NO! Indeed not! Truly though, many short men are happy & only a few supermodel tall girls are… We’re rare, you are common…. You are fine & even I am wallowing lol let’s stop….
But you can’t know if they are happy. Maybe it’s just an act.. And I can’t just leave everything and go to those places. Florida would be good but I’m not even from US and sadly I can’t enter the country just because I want to. Japan -another language and culture..Mexico same thing. Immigration is too extreme.
I don’t know why you’re unhappy being tall. I’d rather be you. The fact that you’re rare is only a positive thing. And we’re not so common either, like 1-2 in 100 maybe.
Well I know the feeling. People have told me to move to Seattle, Denmark, Russia etc. I can’t either. I live in the US, in the southwest. Not hospitable to tall women is what I know. I feel for you if you live in an area where short men are not accepted! Being rare creeps guys out! It’s BAD! I wish we could trade heights TOO! But we can’t, barring a startling new change in modern science OMG, think of the fun we’d have,,,,, SADLY……….
i have just been reading this article and comments for a bit. Bored I just started a new semester and all. I am 5’4 and I would date whoever as long as they had self-respect and understand what a healthy relationship really is. Yet again I am only 19 and pretty naive….
Trust me, you don’t want to date just anyone. Some people don’t brush their teeth.
Sadly indeed.. Well, maybe people are just surprised by you, not necessarily creeped out, It’s not like you’re an alien with 2 heads.. For instance when I see a tall woman I think -wow, she looks awesome, and I may pay attention because you’re rare in a good way. But Im sure women never say that seeing a short guy, they hardly even notice us, and probably think -‘what a loser’…More to that, I am extremely shy and sensitive and rejection is so painful to me, that I dont think I would ever be able to approach any girl, especially after readin this blog, seeing successful people who are single in their 30-40s. and knowing how small my chances truly are.. it appears I will have to get used to a lonely life :( Damn legs…
I am 5’4 and yeah its tough especially living in the US which is pretty materialistic but I look at it as if marriage/kids thing happens it happens but if it does not its not the end of the world. This is life is worth living beyond that just one aspect of relationship. You have a valid opinion though 5’6 and 5’7 but I promise you that a child with kidney failures wished he or she had your life. Its all about perspective and understanding that is perhaps life’s hardest lesson.
Alex, listen to me. When I was 15, a freshman in HS, I was 5’2, and at one point was the shortest guy in the whole school of about 800 kids. It was pretty rough. Somehow, I always had enough swag to have at least one girl interested in me at any given time, but obviously us short guys each have a standard too, so the girl interested in me might not get me aroused. If you stretch your spine enough on a regular basis and keep loose, you can gain up to a few inches in overall height (this was explained to me by my current gf who holds a doctorate degree in physical therapy). I’m actually 5’5 now, at 26 years old, and by eating enough and working out, I maintain 170 lbs. At 15, I was only 120 lbs. Ill let you in on a little secret though. I wouldnt say that more women are attracted to me now that I am 5’5 instead of 5’2; to most girls, its basically the same thing. I would say that, since I quit smoking cigs and started working out and gained weight, I get a little more attention than when I was scrawny.
The last thing I will say, is that carrying confidence, I mean wearing it like a badge of honor, is going to be your only real weapon to attract the opposite sex. There will always be a segment of the women population that refuse to date under a certain height. Nothing will change their mind, as far as I know. But If you can appear confident, maybe even a little mysterious, and be as witty as you can, then you can, and will, attract the girls who are a little less shallow (and all for the better!), some of whom are hotter than the best specimens the heightist-crowd has to offer.
Case in point: My last girlfriend was a 5’11 runway model. My current girlfriend holds a doctorate in PT, is gorgeous, and her IQ is 167. Once I finish my degree in aerospace engineering, shes going back to medschool to become a pathologist. I’ve also had more three-somes than any of my friends, most of whom are over 5’10. And I’ve also probably been rejected more times than they have, too. When a girl rejects you, f*ck her, and ask the next hot chick behind her if she wants to have some fun instead. You’ll be rejected, ignored, and made fun of from time to time, but being short your whole life has probably given you a thick skin to that sh*t anyway.
You can’t get mad when a girl tells you she wants to feel protected by her man, and likes to be wrapped up in his arms etc. The girl is not in control of her physiological responses to the male species, any more than you can help being a short guy. Some girls can’t get passed it. Like I said, brush it off as cool as you can, excuse them from a good time, and ask the next beauty in line. You could also just be tough as nails, and that will help even your stature out a bit. I know my girl is comforted by the fact that I’ve been to prison, and have put myself in harms way to help her or another in need. That can help encourage a girl who subconciously needs security, and thus goes for taller men, to see you in the same light as taller guys.
Do I still get self conscious sometimes when a girl wont give me the time of day, and it appears to be because of my height? Of course. But please, man, don’t end your life until you try this stuff out first. You owe it to yourself to try and be happy for once before you take off from this life.
Don’t know where to begin. I’m a 5’5″ guy. 34 years old. I guess I’m as regular as they come. I don’t make a lot of money but I get by. I think I’m decent looking, but I only run 10 miles a day. I have the kind of body that women wish their men would have.
I’ve devoted my life to being a runner and I love it. I have lots of great attributes that women want in a man. Intelligent,humorous,thoughtful,kind,physically fit. I always thought that anyone of these attributes would make me stand out. They haven’t done a damn thing for me, except women tell me that I’m such a great guy and that I’d find someone. I mean how much of that can a guy take? These same women that are telling you this are the same one that are going off and finding OTHER men. I never thought about my height being the issue until I started paying attention to other couples(I worked at an airport).
I noticed that the men were always taller than their women, and I started doing some research on the internet. I noticed that height played an important role in women’s attraction to men. I was shocked! It had me questioning whether or not I was a man. I mean I am an endurance athlete for crying out loud!!! I mean men do stuff like this. I started asking a few women I knew and indeed my height turned out to be a major issue. I was mortified to find out that all of my good attributes are being overshadowed by ONE attribute that I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER!!
I mean how am I supposed to find a woman if 95% of the female population isn’t attracted to me? I almost feel as though I have to be desperate to find a woman. I’m confident!! I have some super amazing attributes, but what does all that mean in the face of being short? All I can say is that I feel sad that women would rather settle for someone half the man I am, because he is taller. Life is not fair indeed!!
Brother, I’m 51 and was once in your shoes. I am 5’7″ (almost 5’8″ if the Moon is close enough to the Earth to lift me up with the tide). I had all the same alleged desirable qualities when I was in my 30’s. The best I could get was a thrice divorced nurse with 3 kids. Although we had sex, it wasn’t like she encouraged me. She was slowly reeling me in and when I kept slipping off the hook was when the poon started drying up. That was as good as it ever was and it only went downhill after that.
When I hit 40 was when my body went on strike and started putting on the weight. The last chick I had sex with was like doing the Pillsbury Doughboy’s sister. Thus began the Great Desolation that clings to me, even today. Thank God for plentiful internet porn and the Fleshlight! I am a true believer in legalizing prostitution. There’s no point in pretending we have a sound social order that enables men to be men and women to have a more realistic perspective on what makes for a good mate. The institution of marriage in America is beyond repair and has lost all credibility. It is hopelessly warped, which introduces all kinds of hostility and needless frustration. Legalized prostitution and no-fault no-contest Term Limit “Marriages” are the only answer. Yes, the hypocritical church crowd will protest but, they are the least credible voice of all on the current social and sexual dysfunctions of the age.
Again, here I am at 51. Short, fat, thinning hair, and financially very secure off because I never had a woman to waste my money on. Being rich doesn’t make you happy but, it does provide a measure of comfort and consolation to short fat guys like me.
If it makes anybody here feel better, I have a good buddy who is a very successful attorney. He has a long time friend who suffered a sudden break up from his gf. This cat had it ALL. Tall, handsome, a successful defense attorney, and a decent human being. I didn’t get the whole story but, he didn’t deserve what happened to him and being tall didn’t save him. Years ago, I knew a dude in one of these awful Atlanta mega church singles dumps who was a Delta 767 pilot. He had his act together and was telegenic. BUT, he was shorter than ME and couldn’t get these Jezebels to give him the time of day.
Getting old is your friend and losing those hormones that make you think too much about women is the best thing you can hope for. Yes, the heart pines from time to time for female validation but, every year it matters less and less. Invite some old buds over and have a beer with them on the front porch. Dogs and longtime comrades are short men’s best friends.
Hey man. I’m 5’5 too. I know what its like to get rejected for something you cant fix, no matter how much you want to. But before you get down on yourself, or short guys in general, remember this above all else: Lil Wayne is 5’4, and every girl age 20-30 would drop their drawers for that lil pill-popper. Why? Because he’s rich, of course, but also because he has c o n f i d e n c e no matter who hes around. Learn from that.
Hi Jessica,
When you read a post here like Desirae’s stating that she’d rather go downtown on a chick as opposed to messing around with a short dude, she’s putting a bullseye square on her head. By insinuating that a shorter man can’t make a taller woman or any woman for that matter feel like a WOMAN, but a tall lesbian chick can do the job, how’s that supposed to make a short guy feel? My short frame is worthless and any woman is better me? I’m sorry but letting social prejudices dicate whether I’m a quality person is BS! It’s hurtful stuff. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation either. I know two wrongs don’t make a right, but she’s leaving herself wide open for harsh reaction.
BTW, tall girls CAN approach any guy, but, they DON’T. The majority choose to stand on the sidelines and watch the shorter girls crap on the same short guys she equally hates. This can work in her favour because the short girls occupying the unwanted attention from the shorter guys means tall girl can scope out the available taller guys. It’s highly unlikely that a short guy will approach a taller woman after being shot down repeatedly shorter women, unless the tall woman makes herself accessible to him. It’s hard for a short guy to not to have preconceived feelings of failure with taller women when the ladies closer to his height range and slightly taller or shorter don’t want a thing to do with him. Meanwhile tall girl’s blood pressure is rising by the minute all this time because she’s losing the tall guy’s attention to the short girl. The remaining shorter guys in the room are rendered worthless. Sometimes the tall girl will make a move and approach the taller guy before the short girl does to see if he’s got issues with her height.
Short men CAN and DO approach tall women. I do but not regularly. Too much rejection. Besides it’s not like I can that say I’ve been successful in landing a date with a lovely taller babe with long legs, but it hasn’t stopped me from trying. What I don’t do is approach any tall woman. I try to screen out the ladies who are more likely to be receptive and courteous to my advances even though it’s rare for them. Her facial expression tells the story most of the time. I stay very, very far away from the tall ladies looking to crucify me very the monent I step into her personal space. If she’s got issues with me being shorter, she will definitely show me.
Btw, if you check growtall forum you can see there are ~ 80 000 depressed people and teens because of this mean society and women preferences. And the sad thing is -most of them are normal height 5’6-5’10.
Try being Asian. :) I always smile at those tall women, I like them, they are often very pretty, beautiful some might say, yet I wouldn’t date them. Reason? The logic of the world. A woman needs a man who’s taller.
Kinda funny anectdote, a girl I knew through parties and such, a tall one indeed. We went out to have a cup of coffee, her idea. One of my friends found her very attractive and perhaps I could assist in this “love to come” by making her see that he’s very much into her…
Funny as it is she asked me if we could talk about him and how he felt about her (a perfect match up, just that it was kinda odd she texted me, yet some people are shy) although I adviced her to confront him with her feelings, she kinda insisted on me having this cup of coffee with her, and since I already knew that he likes her, then it could only turn out good (what you don’t do for friends).
We got to the topic of dating people and finding the right one. I know already from the countless of encounters (even tall ones :D I find them super attractive especially when I’m not taller than the majority) what I want in a woman and one is… She has to be shorter than me, because as I told her.
“Wouldn’t it look funny. If a guy walks with a girl who’s taller than him? It kinda looks out of order, don’t you think?”
Unsettling as it is, it’s the truth. She agreed and we made fun off people on the streets from the window that we sat nearby.
She never dated my friend although I told her that he was attracted to her and she should give him a call, I feel kind of bad for my friend because I told him she was attracted to him while we were out drinking coffee.
This may answer the reason why short men don’t date/look at taller women. It is unnatural. It may also draw out the reason why shorter men are at times mean to taller women. Because many of them knows like me, it is unreasonable to be in public with them as a couple. It will ruin the mood in bars and cafés, she will be the center of attention to all the googling and the question will arise.
“Why is she dating a man that’s shorter than herself, is something wrong with her?”
or
“She probably have some sort of fetish.”
Its funny because it took me many years to understand this, now I raised my standards to make sure nobody gets hurt that she has to be shorter than me. It’s only natural and if the women at that height don’t likes me, well I don’t dwell on things, I just wanted to share this fun yet strange anectdote.
We wouldn’t date u either fool!
Speak for yourself. Most of us wouldn’t mind several inches. I know I wouldn’t. There’s nothing funny if a man(no matter what height) is in good shape and the girl is tall and slim. It looks hot actually and even if people notice,it doesn’t mean they necessarilty think it’s funny. They could just be jealous. And actually who gives a shit what others think.. The problem here is like Jessica said- it’s very rare that tall women are interested in us, and we’re too scared of rejection to even approach.
@ JustMe
We’ll call this reply: An Uneasy Truth versus Easy Lies
JustMe:
“I think all this anger would diminish a little if people would just stop fxxking lying on their online dating profiles.”
2Shortf4u:
No. All “this anger” is really that of those holding a prejudice based on irrational constructs. The object of revulsion is hardly to blame (as in most cases of intolerance.)
Shorter guys are barred (yes barred) from competition based on one non self-inflicted attribute alone: that of height. The restriction exists before any candidate replies so it is not “no liars”, but “no shorter than xx guys.” Whether one realizes it or not, your suggestion is just a deflection from that truth.
JustMe:
“If you’re not actually 5’9″, don’t say that you are, and if you’re not actually athletic, don’t say that you are. Do not wear hats that cover up a receding hairline in all pictures and do not take angle-shots of your face to make it look skinner. Do not claim to love camping if you actually mean you love Glamping, and do not say you’re open-minded if you actually think men are superior to women or that all guys are cheaters deep down inside.”
2Shortf4u:
Again, height and hair retention: these are nothing that anyone has control over. The other attributes, well they aren’t really applicable to this discussion as tall or short, hirsute or not, they are reflections of lifestyle.
Consider what one labels as lying too.
Firstly, what you reference as lies are really “embellishments.” That isn’t resorting to semantics because it’s not the inaccuracy, but rather the direction in which the inaccuracy falls that is critical. If a 6-4 guy said he was 6-2, I really doubt if the trophy hunter would say, “you liar, get lost.” The same applies to finding out if that average income earner was actually a multi-millionaire. What woman is going to reject him for telling such a falsehood?
Secondly, as far as “embellishment” goes, why is it considered appropriate for women to apply all sorts of soft embellishments to increase their chances, but not for the shorter man (oh… did we forgot that there is a double standard?)
Consider too, that “make-up” is by it’s very nature (and by the moniker itself) purely embellishment. Does one’s cheeks really have that blush? Are those lashes naturally that long? If one wishes all men to be accurately measured, then all photos should be done without makeup and under the same institutional lighting (hey… kind of like a prison mugshot… there’s an idea.)
Realistically, make-up happens because of it does make-up a better appearance. Also the competition does it, so why sell yourself “short?” There in “lies” the answer to why men often add an inch or two: Play the game, and everyone else does too.
We are not advocating excessive embellishment, but this is bound to happen. It’s not the “lying”, it’s still the fact that some are so adverse to “less than average height” that they consider it a personal affront should any below-average height man ask them out. How fxxked up is that?
JustMe:
“Just.Tell.The.Gxddxmn.TRUTH
This seems like the hardest thing in the world for some people and I’m not sure why. I mean, the thing with online dating is that SOMEDAY you will meet in person, and all lies will be found out. And it will be awkward. So just be the opposite of all our politicians and tell the truth.”
2Shortf4u:
This is the very demand that height intolerants refuse to follow.
What was that? How so?
It is because they attempt to hide the real truth about themselves.
That “truth” is that any who hold such an irrational and deep aversion to an attribute that is involuntary, immutable and has no real direct affect (shy of social isolation from height bigots) on a man’s ability to achieve relative success in the world, is really suffering from a large dose of low self-esteem. Does one really think that is an easy truth to broadcast to the world?
In fact, trying to hide it with irrelevancies such as “I like to wear heels”, or I need to feel surrounded, is just camouflage.
Hey, if someone MADE himself or herself unattractive (substance abuse, lack of grooming, suppressed interest in self-education, self administered nutrient overdose, unusual worshiping of fauna, etc…) it makes sense. But judging people as sub-par based on being several inches under average? (How dare they decide to be shorter and expect any respect. Really!) That’s not supported by any “primal” instinct. It’s purely prejudice based on thinking that only desiring a perceived trophy will somehow compensate for personal “short”-comings.
JustMe:
“Dear god.”
2Shortf4u:
“Rudolf” (The closest thing to a “deer god” I know of… I think he was below average height as far as Caribou went too.)
I was considering internet dating now that I’m out of college, been working for a few years, and recently out of a serious relationship. BUT man, reading this article AND their replies is kinda steering me away. Firstly, its an inherent risk of online dating or any dating that you will deal with embellishers. And to set the record straight OVER EXAGGERATING IS A DEPARTMENT OF LYING. In any case, I now feel that most women take it into consideration when filtering prospects.
eg if a guys says on his profile he’s 5’9″ = actually 5’7″
if a guy says he makes $100k/yr = he actually makes ~$60k
if he states he’s athletic = he’s slightly chubby
….etc
now if all this lying happens at a high enough frequency most women will be sure to factor this into their judgement NOW the guys that want to tell truth are F’ked. So please stop lying, they’re going to find out ANY way. It’s a method destined to fail and screw others over in the process.
PLUS, all those girls that go for dudes just because of their height… they’re stupid. WHY THE HELL would you want them anyway? it’s a very Primal instinct for women to be attracted to tall guys just for the sake of height. “He tall, He strong,” sounds like very primitive right? well that’s what these bimbos are thinking. YOUR height doesn’t help in much other than the dating scene. Sure, there are minor things such as some sports and management positions, BUT I’d argue Smarts trump both of those. Personally, I respect somebody because of their intelligence vs their stature(like I said its VERY primitive). Back when we were hunters & gatherers, yes i could see how the taller guys (not lanky) demanded a bit of respect given obvious advantages. BUT we’ve evolved passed that (except those women who only seek tall men). IT’s about brains now. The dude that will be able to provide more is the dude with more $$, which correlates strongly to intelligence vs height. The women that notice this seemingly obvious correlation will look beyond height.
just for $hits sake research or just consider average height of males at the top 20 schools. Being the ethnic make up is predominantly Jews, Asians (Indians inclusive), Caucasians… most of ’em are pretty short. But they’re smart. eg the tall dudes at my school were all athletes (very small group of people) AND they got into these schools because of their athletic abilities not because of smarts.
AND FOR ALL YOU GUYS DEPRESSED BECAUSE YOUR SHORT. go out there are take f’king BIG RISKs, you’ve got nothing to lose any ways. There’s no downside, cause you already think you’re at the bottom.
I wonder what the count is now compared to the original 65 responses.
Anyways, I wish to say that I’m sitting with joy at my computer to say how glad I am at not being in a relationship with a tall egotistical jerk that ruins lives, who by the way has a high school mentality. You guys are putting too much stock in these women and it gives them power over you. If you place yourself in a position to be used then you had it coming to you. They’re using you as examples before everyone in this forum to justify their lustful addiction to height. If the shoe doesn’t fit ladies… don’t respond! I only remember these types of conversations in high school where the best of anything was displayed in the year book. We had fun during those days and then we graduated, but many of us are still chasing after the same grade school activities. Notice I said graduated. Our mentality should have graduated into adulthood along with our diplomas. And if you’re 30+ there’s no excuse.
I advise you men to start being ok with yourselves and up your self esteem. None of these women said anything about personality. Just height! Some men are concerned about not having this. But I say to you… learn who you are so you wont chase after happiness in people. If you find a tall women and it clicked, then it was worth the wait because you as a man are mentally stable. The more these women reject you guys, the more you’re attracted to them. It’s a ‘conquer territory’ issue men. For me, I get the point at 5’7″, and I’ve dated taller women. It was my confidence that attracted them to me. Women know a confident man when they see one. But, if there wasn’t a match (mentally, spiritually, like-minds) then there was no relationship. The final decision should be the two matching. But how can either side get a match if both are saying tall is the only option? That’s an addictive persona that leads to lifetime displeasures and endless desires never to be fulfilled. Thus, we have this form. Pull yourselves up men! Love and educate yourselves about who you are within! You shouldn’t have to worry about making people like you! Love yourselves and you’ll attract your soul mate!
Confidence personality..but what if there’s none? What if I’m boring? It’s not something you can learn over night , being funny or whatever is not something you can just acquire either. I am speechless..so much is expected from men.. and these ‘must be’s are just stupid. It wasn’t like I chose deliberatly to be short boring and poor.. But nobody cares.. They wouldn’t date someone because he’s a loving caring but not funny? SeriouslY? I never speak out about my preferences, like -she must be this or that, I don’t really care as long as she’s nice and kind-hearted. I realize I am way below most women’s expectations.. And it’s probably another subject but, they all want confident men, shy women want confident men, confident girls want confident guys. Nobody wants shy or not funny, the same way nobody wants short..It never ends for me does it? I’m like the package of what women DON’T want… It’s like be this and that, or you’re fucked.. Short with no personality.. how much worse can it get…
SINK OR SWIM!
To the men who feel helpless… start socializing more. Start your own networking group where people can mingle amongst themselves. Have social hour at your home with wine tasting amongst friends of friends, have a football & boxing parties (women love sports now days), host a lingerie party for women who are single. In other words, there are things that will draw women in, but you have to be creative to get them, that’s if you enjoy being around many at one time to choose from. Sitting around complaining is not the answer. Try starting small social events to get the ball rolling. You’ll be the ‘man’ just because of the idea, and they will not run because you’re short! They’ll respect you for your efforts! If you complain after not doing anything expecting a different result… you’ll never be happy.
i am completely anti-social and don’t enjoy being around people in general. hosting a party are u kidding, i don’t think you realize what a word shy means. Besides I don’t drink and hate sport. Jeez I’ll better hire a prostitute then.
As you wish…
before you start pursuing women you really need to start loving your self more. Count your blessings(if you say you have none, LOOK HARDER). Try learning some principle of Buddha and manage your desires vs. constantly being disappointed. Interpersonal strength if of utmost importance(MORE SO THAN HEIGHT).
For a little while I have been a lurker on this blog for a while, and most of the of the discussion points of short v tall have been made. I’m 5’4″ and in my 40’s meeting typical demographics (divorced, educated, etc…), however I would like to state a few hard learned lessons:
Life Is Not Fair
It’s true, there are a lot of very presumptuous young and old people with valued preconceptions that are simply twisted, lack reason or are plainly miserable and mean, and these short-sighted (pun intended) intellectually holier-than-thou might be your boss, mother-in-law or neighbor. Yep, they’re everywhere, we’re surrounded by idiocracy. What’s a short guy to do? Nothing will do more for you than self-determination. Take charge of your life, don’t accept no, and when you fall (which isn’t far), damn it laugh at yourself before anyone else can and pick yourself up. Life isn’t about fairness and equality and that holistic horsecrap, it’s your life and you need to take control by planning short-term and long-term goals for personal and professional life outcomes. Yep, you get out of life what you put into it. Can you handle it?
Women Do Not Want A Short Guy
News flash, it’s simple biology, chemistry and desire. There are a lot of women that don’t want short guys, it’s true.We might as well hold each others hands and jump off a damn cliff. However, there is nothing to benefit from by lamenting about women you can’t have a relationship with because a physical trait no of us can control. Women that are open to shorter men you will find, will be more interesting, open-minded and possess the common respect and decency we seek in all relationships. Laws of the jungle work both ways, baby, birds of feather.
Work With What You Got
Among many things I fly a large airplane (A330), cockpits are not made for tall guys but they are great for me! I tell tall guys to stop complaining when they are on my flightdeck. Short, crippled, tall, fat, small boobs you’re not getting any pity or sympathy from me. If you’re a reasonable person, work with what God gave you, accept your weaknesses and improve yourself. For those that are judgmental about something as minor as height, ignore them, bad genes come in all sizes. I would much rather have sex with a woman that I have a lot in common with, good sex and good times! Pretty and stupid can get boring real fast.
Happy Hunting!
Jettn’
Good post. It never would have occurred to me that there would be an advantage to being shorter in flying a jet. You know what other profession suits shorter men? Car racing. Especially open wheel racing where space is at a premium. Look through history and you will find that most F1 drivers are small dudes. I’m a cyclist and some of the best climbers in the world are short. Nairo Quintana is a climber from Colombia that flies on the mountains. When he goes there are very few people in the world that can hold his wheel. He stands at 5’5″.
It’s understandable when girls who have physical preferences or requirements look like this http://misshightimes.com/userdata_mht/6331/images/thumbs/6331_4aff54be53e41_t250.jpg
I’ve watched some interviews , and turns out most of the so-called height queens are far from THAT good looking themselves (for example watch the famous 20/20 report on short guys) and those who were open to all types of guys were actually cute lol. Guess I’m not missing much then..I’m happy now
Alex,
Tall women with weight problems are more often are the ones with the strong physical preferences for the taller guys. It’s way too embarrasing for her to be larger, heavier and taller than her BF. The same thing can be said for tall women who are considered “less pretty” or not as facially attractive to the mainstream public as other women. It’s a whole lot easier to hide a not-so- attractive face beside or behind a tall guy. Her hope is that a taller man’s frame will overshadow her negative features by shifting the primary focus from her to him. Her face won’t receive that much negative press because the focus will be on the height of the tall couple together and not just the woman. His height, combined with herself being marginally shorter than him brings less attention to to the tall girl because they will fit in as a typical tall man/shorter woman couple even if she towers over most of the remaining. men.
There are tall ladies who are very pretty, consider themselves top of the line quality and behave like complete bitches because their egos are constantly being fed on a daily basis.
Then there are the humble, polite, respectful type tall ladies who are good looking inside and out. They don’t care about a man’s height and will date guys more than a few inches shorter. The rarest tall girls are the ones who actually prefer the shorter guys. So hard to find! It may be a dominant/submissive, fetish- type, role-playing relationship, but there are honest women in this world who do like shorter men. Some without fetishizing.
Tall women with weight problmes? Do they even exist?. I think it’s just overweight women and less pretty women who hate us more. Which is probably a good thing for us, right?
P.S. and I’m ok with the fetish part lol
I’d just like to point out two statistical observations: short men do NOT beget short sons unless the mother is short. Boys’ heights are bounded below by the height of the *mother*, not the height of the father. So a short woman will NOT increase the likelihood of having a non-short son by mating with a tall man.
Also: girls’ heights tend to fall within the bounds of the parents’ heights. Hence a very tall woman WILL increase the likelihood of an average height daughter by mating with a short man. Her sons however will still be taller than her.
Mmm well my son is 10 & 5’7 now ( the one tall man/ boy who will love me for me). lol… My daughter is a lol girl 15 & fully grown at 5’5 (& here I thought I’d have a tall girl). So at 5’11 I “made” a big son and a little (in my world) daughter. Mysterious! The father (as I’ve mentioned is my gay friend)…. He’s 6’2. So who knows? Genetics suck! My parents are 5’8 (mom) and 6’0 (dad)? How I’m a giant & my daughter is a lucky lil girl I’ll never know?
How tall was your father?
6’0 see genes a mystery? Lol maybe my mom cheated. ? I have his amazingly dark blue eyes though?
Bring on the short guys!! I had given up on dating, but this post has convinced me to try internet dating again. I had no idea there is a whole group of guys just waiting for girls. I stand at 5’0 and think all the gents that are 5’6 and under are the perfect height for me. Now to find one that likes a short, ‘curvy’ single mom…
Love the blog, keep the laughs coming!
Couldn’t disagree with you more Bee. My husband is 6′ 3 and I’m 5’1. I used to have all these short worthless and repulsive losers come up to me just because I was short and they had the nerve to think I’m in their league? PLEASE! Do us all a favor short men and jump off a bridge. I’m not superficial really, but would it be too hard for someone to make a short guy repellent? Thank god I have my husband:). Works just as well.
haha that’s so cruel…. yeah a taller man but seriously more than a foot taller . I hope ur baby weighs 12 lbs. u lil slut! I guess u spin like the gapped, wide open piece of shit slut you are! Taller girls are ACTUALLY tight Mmm mm I’ve noticed ? U minis are gapped as fucked hoes who like it big & show the results after you are DUMPED… Haha
Gentlemen. Don’t put too much effort into women like Sarah either. I know some hot, sexy, short women that would gladly take her on and pummel her into submission in defense of short people. Good women appreciate men of all heights and are thankful and respectful when a man shows them interest, even if it’s playful flirting. The smart ladies feed off this attention and the nicer ones are appreciative at the same time they’re gettin’ some “eye-love.” Nobody is in nobody’s league. Chicks who have leagues are often the unhappiest and the least fun in the bedroom. They have nothing to offer because they’ve spent most of their lives in front of the mirror. They ain’t no different from the next girl when they strip to the bones, except that they can’re reciprocate pleasure when they are already too into themselves and full of themselves. Don’t get fooled into wanting to be in her twisted life picture. Don’t glamourize the beast that she is. I feel sorry for her husband if his height is all he is to her, even if she is hot. She is still nothing, based on what she’s said here.
I personally hope you give birth to a short son and see first hand how tragic it can be to be born short and just because your husband is 6’3″ doesn’t guarantee that a son will pick up your genes and end up being only 5’1″. Some parents of short men are grieving because they ended up killing themselves over being short. It’s unbelievable that there are several women like ROSA who advocate that short men commit suicide because they are “worthless” human beings. What has this world come to?
Sometimes I run into a lady that says, “I’m too tall for you.”
My reply, “We’re the same height laying down.”
Of all the possible deal breakers out there, IMO height is probably one of the dumbest. And really it’s not just coming from the women. I know lots of shorter guys who always assume there’s no point to going after a taller woman, as well as taller women who wish guys wouldn’t have that attitude.
And to be fair, I had that attitude once upon a time too (I’m 5’6″). I just thought it would be “weird.” Then one day I found myself basically targeted by a woman who was 5’10”. You know what I found out? It seriously makes NO difference whatsoever. I get the whole attraction aspect and that people have different attitudes about stuff, but for something to reach instant-dealbreaker status, this is kind of absurd.
At the risk of seeming a bit too blatant with the self-promotion here, a few months ago I wrote a blog post of my own on the subject, comparing the question of height to the nearest equivalent I can think of with men – boobs. Feel free to check it out: http://undertheporkpiehat.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/a-question-of-height-and-boobs/
I’m 5’7 on a good day. I agree with your sentiments. I wouldn’t worry about it though. 90 percent of people out there aren’t date-able. As the late Moondog said “Do your thing”.
Women are not the only ones to blame…a lot of the comparisons/pressure men face are from other men. Starting from their locker room days with other boys.
Women are chosen by their physical attributes in the dating game so why not men on their height? Men can make up for looks or height with personality/humor/security factors. It doesn’t work the other way around…a good joke won’t change the mind of a man who doesn’t already find the woman attractive.
Men and women both have their preferences while dating BUT men are more likely to compromise their standards if the possibilty of sex gets thrown in.
@Andrea
Andrea says:
“Women are not the only ones to blame…a lot of the comparisons/pressure men face are from other men. Starting from their locker room days with other boys.”
2Short4u:
No. Height restrictors (generally “restricted” to females) are the ONLY ones to blame for their voluntary action of “restricting”.
It is not men who put “must be this tall to contact me” on their online ads. It is the height restrictor that does this. This doesn’t translate to women in general either as intolerance to that degree isn’t quite so pandemic. However, when one is so afflicted, it can be severe enough to cause all sorts of rationalization and deflection in attempts to defend the behaviour.
As far as “comparisons and pressure”, it is doubtful that men preclude other men based solely on a height threshold (where did we ever hear or see of “must be this tall to be part of this men’s group”?) This sounds more like the projection of how young girls behave amongst their peerage.
It’s difficult to include organized sports (even WITH specific requirements for sports that are artificially geared towards certain attributes) since most (if not all) such sports have “try-outs”. Since you mention “locker rooms”, please demonstrate which sports have “must be this tall to try out”.
If one is talking about “what boys do”, that is essentially equating the thought process of height intolerants to adolescent behaviour. On this we agree: height intolerance is childish.
Even if such discrimination existed amongst their peers, one “wrong” does not exonerate another. Read on…
Andrea says:
“Women are chosen by their physical attributes in the dating game so why not men on their height?”
2Short4u:
This is the “tu quoque” fallacy (“you do it too”.)
It is not correctly applied since it isn’t substantiated. Few men (if any) openly (or even subversively) have a restriction based on an involuntary and immutable trait such as height (Big bxxbs? Mythology. Blonde? Mythology. Barbie Doll? Mythology.)
Is there even a common “restriction” that men apply? No. Hardly.
Men do rate potential mates based on physically attractiveness. However, they rarely if ever have a restriction based on a, you guessed it, “involuntary and immutable” trait. Go through the list running through your mind and you will not realistically find ONE “trait” that men demand that potential mates MUST exceed or fall below.
In all practical sense, people can’t make themselves any taller. People CAN make themselves more attractive.
So, that is “why not”.
Andrea says:
“Men can make up for looks or height with personality/humor/security factors. It doesn’t work the other way around…a good joke won’t change the mind of a man who doesn’t already find the woman attractive.”
2short4u:
The intolerance can be deep enough that it creates exclusion (and not just a preference.)
There is no “making up” when one is not even invited to the contest. That is what a height restriction is. It has nothing to do with the personality, comedy, security, etc of the candidate. They are banned from examination.
It doesn’t come to working the “other way around” since these “factors” of attractiveness are all things that practically every woman can work on (for example, even currently effective and extreme glandular issues can be controlled by modern medicine.) You don’t need a “good joke” if you have done the work (yes it is WORK for most people) to be as attractive as possible in the first place (and these traits do NOT include immutable ones nor are they so stringently judged to be used as restrictions.)
There is no pill, or special diet or lifestyle change for height.
Andrea says:
“Men and women both have their preferences while dating BUT men are more likely to compromise their standards if the possibilty of sex gets thrown in.”
2short4u:
This is just a deflection.
It has been mentioned on almost every discussion on this topic (and probably several times in this blog and it’s predecessor) that it is a “RESTRICTION”. It is NOT merely a “preference.” Whether one realizes it or not, this is the typical euphemistic deflection to make a prejudice seem more innocuous.
Most people (men or women) have preferences, but height intolerants have height RESTRICTIONS. Since this irrational aversion to a lack of height is practically a female behaviour, we cannot couch it as a similarity between the sexes.
What? Men are more apt to compromise “standards”? Neither gender as a whole is any more or less honourable if bargains are perceived to be available. Be it football tickets, food, precious stones, automobiles, clothing, cash, rare opportunity or access, people will relax “standards” to close a deal. If you believe men are more prone to this variance, feel free to provide some evidence.
In contrast, the evidence that “height intolerance” in women is far more prevalent than any equally irrational behaviour in men (and there really isn’t any parallel) is easily supported by what we see in online dating sites.
@ everbody…
2short4u
While this latest post being responded to may seem sensible, we have demonstrated how it really isn’t. As such, it typifies the irrationality and deflective arguments used to defend height intolerance (or any intolerance for that matter.) Again, we are attacking the post and not the poster.
It is also interesting to see how it is a gateway to more “extremist” beliefs.
Just have a look at some of the caustic comments from height intolerants here. See how proud they are of their prejudice and how passionately they must vilify their objects of disdain. This speaks of significantly low self-esteem. That is the true nature of the irrationality that “defends” intolerance.
If the lady I’m interested in doesn’t “Get” Wes Andserson movies, she is removed from further consideration.
Try being a girl! It’s hard we are judged by men, women & the media 24/7. We have one preference, you men have millions. We actually want love not sex. Short guys apparently just are not getting their fare share. I see short men who seem to get their’s. I’m not sure any of this is true. However I do notice a trend that uglier, fatter, less attractive girls seem to have better, longer term relationships? I don’t know why?
@kailani
Kailani says:
March 21, 2012 at 2:38 am
Try being a girl! It’s hard we are judged by men, women & the media 24/7.
2Short4U:
No. This is just the same old deflection.
The media creates an ideal to which women attempt to match. It also creates a standard for an ideal man to which some women revere to an extreme. Unless you are trying to get a position within the media industry, it doesn’t “judge” you.
Men have expectations that can and will be influenced by media standards. However, these are far less the slave to the media than a lot of women’s (especially the height intolerants) ones. As it as been mentioned, the “Barbie doll”, the “big bxxbs”, “vixen” must-haves are all myths which are constantly conjured up by those attempting to defend height aversion. As this nothing more than the usual defence utilizing the logical fallacy of “you too” (two wrongs making a right,) it is inadequate. Men will judge, but it is rarely (if ever) on an innocuous, immutable and involuntary trait. (More on this “shortly”.)
Women judge each other quite harshly. We agree on that. However, allowing peer pressure to dictate ones “preference” to the point that the “preference” is illogical and is really a “restriction” is indicative of a weakness in character.
It may be “hard”, but requiring effort is not mitigation for irrationality.
Kailani says:
March 21, 2012 at 2:38 am
We have one preference, you men have millions.
2Short4U:
“We” as in height intolerants? No. Height intolerants do not have one “preference” they have one “restriction.” This obfuscation has been pointed out in the very post you responded to. To repeat it is really just proof of how one requires a mantra to hide from the truth.
Men have millions? Men have no greater an expanse in desire towards ideals in mate selection than women. However, the topic isn’t really about having affinity for positive scores. Its about having ridiculous views driving a prejudice. The whole concept of being so abhorrent of a characteristic to the point of having a restriction is about irrationality and immaturity.
Try and name ONE parallel to height restriction that men have. Remember, this restriction has to be applied to a trait that is involuntary, immutable and essentially has no bearing on the abilities of the individual. Be honest. You can’t.
Kailani says:
March 21, 2012 at 2:38 am
We actually want love not sex.
2Short4U:
You’d think that a healthy relationship would need both. If you mean to say that women want more than just sexual encounters (and that many man only want “sex”) that may not even be correct.
North American society has come a long way in that many more women can have careers that provide enough income that they needn’t depend on a man for financial support. With that, we find that a trend towards women only wanting men for sexual relations is on the increase. The “boy toy” is something that is happening more often now. Hence, women as a whole are no more or less noble in the pursuit of gratification.
Certainly we cannot speak for all men, but in general men are as desirous of love and respect as women are. This attitude of “men are only after sex” is more wishful thinking (in that one can control a man this way.) People should respect oneself and others (as in giving others something to respect.) That goes a long way in growing past this type of negative (and unfounded) stereotype.
Kailani says:
March 21, 2012 at 2:38 am
Short guys apparently just are not getting their fare share.
2Short4U:
Online? They definitely are ostracized, but as far as a “fair share”, most of those having “height restrictions” are hardly something to be shared. In the real world, the prejudice exists, but it’s far less of a problem.
Kailani says:
March 21, 2012 at 2:38 am
I see short men who seem to get their’s. I’m not sure any of this is true.
2Short4U:
Well, that would be disingenuous at best. It’s pretty easy to find height restrictions in many female online dating profiles.
Kailani says:
March 21, 2012 at 2:38 am
However I do notice a trend that uglier, fatter, less attractive girls seem to have better, longer term relationships? I don’t know why?
2Short4U:
How is any of that related to the topic?
Bravo my friend, sheer poetry.. I salute you. Tis a shame that the tall loving Neanderthals probably wont understand it. Lol
Cus ugly girls are eeeezzzz & guys only look at body,not the face & fat is sort of the “new skinny”… Plus ethnicity is the “new white”…
Was that one whole sentence?
I’m 5’7 and my height isn’t an issue for me, but I do stay in shape and am highly educated.
Yes, MANY American women are obsessed about height, but in my experience it’s usually the women who come from the lower and lesser educated levels of American society. I’ve had great success in my sex life with GORGEOUS women from Costa Rica, Brazil, Columbia, Czech Republic, Japan, and Eastern Europe. My advice to American men under 6’2 is to just travel to other countries such Brazil, Costa Rica, Poland, Monaco, and Columbia. American women have the reputation for being near Hitler-sympathetic in their perspectives of what a good man should look like when it’s no secret that they themselves rank among the world’s fattest and dumbest of women. Believe or not, the world has many definitions of what perfection is. Yes, American man are judgmental too, but they are far more forgiving than their counter parts and the statistics prove it; American women have more rights, more freedoms, and more money than any other women in their world, yet they file the most divorces, cheat on their male partners the most, have the most abortions, and have the least respect for traditional family values. Pretty awful values in action. The data seems to imply that the most privileged women in the world, are also the most ungrateful and cruel. American men on the hand are in high demand by millions of healthy beautiful women from countries that admire them and that can measure a strong man in more ways than one. My advice is to just travel like interesting men, and enjoy being the sexiest men on earth by default of nationality. Cheers fellas and happy hunting.
Tall, short, fat, skinny, what does it matter? I just don’t want to be with a woman who says “anyways” or “very unique”. My ex- will not date anyone who ends a sentence with a preposition.
By the way, just found your site and it’s the funniest shit I’ve read in years. Thanks!
I’m 5’8 my x bf was 5’6 the truth is people’s commentary on me being too tall for him got me down & that’s why I moved on. My new new bf is 6’2 and 230 lbs. and not half the man of my ex but everyone else sees it as acceptable so there is the problem.
Wow what at Bee-atch!
I love how this blog for short guys (me) ends up with women making it about themselves. Go find another blog, please, this one is taken.
On a related note, the dwarf from “Game of Thrones” is my hero! My brother from another mother!
Jettn’
It’s actually not a blog for short guys? It’s a commentary in a situation by one tall man. It seems that ppl can comment their thoughts as they wish. Go first 1st amendment!
@Rosier
Rosier says:
April 9, 2012 at 4:19 am
It’s actually not a blog for short guys? It’s a commentary in a situation by one tall man.
2Short4U:
Rather facetious is that not? While it is a commentary, the SUBJECT of the commentary is pretty clear. How that subject was initially delivered (as a commentary) is inconsequential.
Jettn’s observation is exacting. Many attempts have been made to hijack this conversation with detailed stories on the mating challenges of taller women (even though these challenges have been repeatedly shown to be neither as prevalent nor as dire as that of short guys in online situations.) As well as trying to crowd out the real subject, it’s also a form of “shaming” to suppress dialogue (Hey, you think YOU have it tough, well, I have it just as bad, but I’m not complaining as loudly…)
The truth is that height intolerance is so advanced in some that they think it’s OK to badger others this way. Does anyone still believe that prejudice is not a product of immaturity and low self-esteem?
This type of behaviour provides evidence that some will resort to harassment when rational argument is not available. It also speaks volumes about the “it’s all about me” attitude that pervades the mindset of those who think that a relationship is well, “all about me.” Lol.
Rosier says:
April 9, 2012 at 4:19 am
It seems that ppl can comment their thoughts as they wish.
2Short4U:
Well, that would not be evident in what the blog master has stated here. It is doubtful that people can post whatever they want. If they could, this would be no different than a typical un-moderated forum (F-Bombs, ad hominem, threats, etc.)
Chances are, the moderator here allows some of these off-topic posts so that the true nature of those who defend height intolerance can be exposed in the best way possible: voluntary display of their thoughts and tactics. For that, we applaud this gatekeeper.
Rosier says:
April 9, 2012 at 4:19 am
Go first 1st amendment!
2Short4U:
If this were meant to celebrate how the 1st amendment protects the right to voice whatever is on one’s mind, it would be misapplied.
While the amendment protects the freedom of speech, it does not extend such liberty of diatribe to include things such as the promotion of falsehoods or incitement of hate or intolerance. Here’s a handy reader-friendly guide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions
Of course, the perceived relative mildness in consequence of this situation (no one is losing life or limb through this prejudice… at least not that we know of) keeps most of the retained hostile posts safe from any real persecution. This lack of exposure is unfortunate since the posts of the few brave souls that mention their experiences of being systematically marginalized show that it can be really painful.
People who may not directly feel this isolation will find it easy to ignore. People who don’t want to admit they are part of the promotion of this prejudice will often try to shut down dialogue (be it by ridicule or by harassment.)
But bullying is bullying. As such, bullying in general is not so invisible anymore. Judgments in recent landmark cases have shown that.
So while one has freedom to expression, this freedom is still intentionally constrained by the law. In any case, the “law” here is still the blog master.
@everybody
2Short4U:
It is striking to note that many still try to defend intolerance by deflection and subterfuge (like pretending the subject matter isn’t clearly defined) rather than really delving into why such dysfunction exists.
Fortunately, when things are “defended” in this way, the truths are quite easy to see.
I’ve followed this thing silently for a while. My thoughts unappreciated as they may be…… It’s hard being different. It’s hard being lonely. Life is superficial, sad and crazy. Self confidence issues make you unwanted & unhappy. They are uncontrollable though! Dating is horrible! Relationships suck anyway! People are cruel! Some people win and some people lose! Darwinism is hell! It’s
survival of the attractive to others not survival of the attractive! Don’t be a short man, or a tall
woman if you can help it! Perception is EVERYTHING!
I’m a 5’10 man. My first real girlfriend was 5’11. We grew up together. After 7 years we broke up,not because of our inch height difference which never hardly came up. I dated various girls of varying heights but was always more attracted to girls 5’7-6’0, no real reason. I like long legs. I don’t like childlike qualities. I also prefer dark hair & fair skin, preferences are prefrences. Any way two years ago I met a girl (5’11, dark hair, light skinned) and she seemed like a good match. I had put 6’0 on my profile & before we met I fessed up. She said this was a problem but maybe we could “be friends”. For once I didn’t blow off this notion. We actually became friends. After two months, we became more. That inch stopped mattering. Now two years later, we’re expecting our first baby.& getting married in June. We both took achance & things worked out just fine.
Well yehaw. Let’s have a old number 7 dance.
No idea what that means.
After reading through both this post and the previous one, as well as the comments, I feel compelled to put in my two cents.
First off, I have to give kudos to 2short for putting the feelings of every frustrated short man who has tried their damndest to make their way in the dating world. A little about myself: I’m 5′ 2″, 34 years old, and although I’m not in perfect shape, I exercise daily and am well on my way to a fitter look. I do okay for myself, and I don’t think I’m completely hideous in the looks department. I got started late in the game due to family issues, but I think I’m a quick learner, and have had some minor successes. I’m an honest, moral, fun man, just looking for a real relationship that could lead to something more serious. I’ve always known that someday, I would be an awesome father and husband. That being said, I still wake up everyday feeling like the deck is stacked against me. It’s like playing blackjack with a completely different deck as almost everyone else. I get all the low cards, and everyone else has the aces or face cards. Taller men don’t have to talk to women and wonder if all she’s thinking about is how much taller she is than you. I’ve come across multiple occasions in the past week alone where either I’ve been shot down for a lack of height, or I’ve heard a female coworker talking about how a blind date’s lack of height alone precluded him from being worthy of dating again. She literally said, with me in earshot, “It’s a shame. I would’ve probably ended up marrying him if he was half a foot taller.”
2 short is correct. Heightism is one of the last widely accepted forms of discrimination, especially in the dating world. And what’s worse is seeing some of these “women” who have posted here try to minimize our plight due to their own height issues (tall women, I’m looking at you) or those who just decided that short men are flat-out undeserving of life, much less a fulfilling romantic relationship. (How Nazi-like of the latter.) Even worse, when we air our grievances, we’re “Napoleons.” We’re just supposed to sit and accept what life has dealt us, like a world free of this discrimination is impossible. I’m compelled to ask, though: would you have asked the same of Martin Luther King or any other leader of a group persecuted due to a physical trait? Is what they wanted unreachable? I recognize that they fought for institutionalized determination, but those institutions take their cues from the society that created them, right? We can only change the world by changing ideas, misconceptions (tall men protectors, etc.) and behaviors. Short men deserve the same opportunities for partnering that the rest of our society is afforded.
People don’t deserve the “opportunity to partner”. It’s just life. Darwin baby?
That would be the response of someone who is comfortable with the status quo. If everyone did that, we’d still be in the Dark Ages. Social mores aren’t rigid; they can change if there is enough force behind them.
@Rob
2Short4U:
Your compliments are graciously received, my friend. It’s amazing how immature the minds are of those who promote this prejudice. The attempts to silence the dialogue is proof that heightists are very aware of their dysfunction and wish it to remain in the shadows.
As you note, here is a typical example:
@Angel
Angel says:
April 19, 2012 at 6:06 am
“People don’t deserve the ‘opportunity to partner’. It’s just life. Darwin baby?”
2Short4u:
This is just the predicted retreat back to the wholly unsupported claim of “it’s natural instinct.” As it has been discussed many times on this thread alone, such a comment is nothing more than mantra. It is propaganda used to convince oneself that their feelings and actions are “out of their control” and therefore not a reflection of their character (or lack of it.) It’s not. The bias is strictly an invention of their minds.
The truth remains that the vilification of shorter-than-average men by certain women is really the projection of their own perceived inadequacy in the dating game. This need to reject what they see as social outcasts is a reaction to their own feelings of failure. They are rejected for reasons they fool themselves into thinking are happenstance or an unlucky roll of the die (most of the time it is not as “attractiveness” involves self appraisal and work on self-improvement).
Hence, they feel it perfectly fine to do the same to others. It doesn’t even matter if they are relatively attractive either. As long as they feel less attractive then their peers they can be vulnerable to this kind of childish behaviour.
Another thing wrong with that response is that, without prejudice, everyone “deserves” the chance to compete. No one is guaranteed first prize, or even a consolation one, but everyone “deserves” a place on the starting line. One may not get a partner, but to promote any bias in opportunity for one is the very social inequity that we strive to eliminate as we mature from adolescent views.
Its just life? Lol.
I wonder how one would feel about that response when they go to the authorities after being robbed? After all, no one “deserves” to be free from being victimized: Its just life. Monkey see, monkey take is, after all, the way of the animal kingdom.
Darwin, baby?
Darwin’s work was “On the Origin of the Species” not “On the Unoriginal of the Specious”, Lol.
Evolutionary impetus is based on suitably healthy mates and not tied to “must be average height or more.” Furthermore, if we choose this model, females are useful as mates only during the child bearing and child rearing years. After that, they are good only for berry-picking and other sundry duties. If one subscribes to this 100,000 years-ago societal construct, then women would have a lot less say in anything let alone having a civilized discussion about social tort.
Relying on basic “Darwinism”? Have a baby, pick berries or leave the tribe. Don’t speak unless you are spoken to (doesn’t work that well does it now… oh I forgot you aren’t allowed an opinion.)
As tall white woman, I date only large black men. They forgive our height & hope to make basketball player babies. My oldest son is going to heat up the NBA in a year or two. White men are just soooo picky they all deserve to be alone short or tall. Plus they are insecure, depressed and can’t be gentlemen. Just pointing that out! Oh and I’m not hating short men… I’d rather have a tall black man but a short one is better and kinder than ANY white man!
Oh, and I found this sight because my daughters are struggling with their height at ages 15 & 16 as I struggled with mine and I’ve read the comments but trust me & them it’s real hard to be a tall female! I had a hard time as a white one, but my daughters (tall & mixed race) are really struggling!
No, it’s not a competition but yeah it’s a heartbreaker! Good luck to us all in this very biased world!!!!
My advise be a gentleman, take on a woman’s insecurities with compassion and all men can find a loving lady! Sadly you all just don’t try!!!!!!!
First off, congratulations on your son.
Second, white men are not all so picky. I’ve messaged short, tall, skinny, plus-sized, white back, Hispanic, etc. and not all ’10’s, as society would call them. So that’s quite the generalization you’re making. Second, what makes you think that there aren’t gentlemen among us already? Do you think we’re all indecent schmucks? And what makes you think that we aren’t trying?
Third, this whole conversation was intended for discussion about how short men are discriminated against in the dating world. By you hijacking the conversation as others have done and making it about the problems you had in dating (which, btw, by the fact that you have at least three kids means you’ve conquered your issue), you are contributing to the problem by denying us the truth of our issue.
You know, what’s worse than the people who just say that short men don’t deserve love are those who are aware of it and are just plain indifferent to it. It has little to do with insecurity on our parts, and a lot to do with dealing with prejudice.
Amen Rob! Nice post.
Andromeda sounds like she’s trying to hide her true feelings of hatred for short men. In playing the race card and the height card, notice that she had to emphazise “large” and “black?” Tall white women like her are no different than the hords of other tall, superficial, heightist women who all of a sudden are “chocolate curious?” Tall white guys have used and abused women like her, so she now turns her attention to the tall black man for support? Her mentioning that short black men are better than short white men is a cheap way of saving face. One short guy better than the other is irrelevant in her world because she’s still a heightist. How can she not be with all the NBA garbage stuff and tall baby making crap she’s spewed here?
I feel sorry for her daughters to have a mother like her that would colour their minds with such nonsense and prejudice. On second thought, I don’t really feel sympathy for her children unless they wake up themselves and understand the negative impact their mother will have on their future adult relationships. She’s programming her daughters to believe race and height are important values when choosing a partner. You wonder why the divorce rate is climbing steadily? Look no further than Andromeda. Women like Andromeda and her offspring justifiy my lack of faith in the future of society.
Also, knowing that she hates shorter white guys more than she hates shorter black guys make we wonder how much hatred she has for short Asian guys or short Latino guys? BTW Andromeda, insecure women are unnattractive. Insecure women carry a permanent measuring stick and let whatever pair of high heels from her shoe rack choose the men for her to date. Insecure, height anal women don’t make the best partners because they need his height to feel confident about themselves. One more thing, I never thought that being a gentleman is predicated on height or skin colour. I’ve always been a gentleman and I don’t have to try because my loving parents raised me to be one. Hopefully you will consider raising your daughters to be polite, respectful, curtious, and open minded. Not shallow, ignorant, pretentious and narrow minded.
I’m 5’8” and cute and a girl. My bf is same height. I don’t need a guy to be taller than me, just BIGGER than me. I agree (although it’s cliche) there’s something innate or evolutionary about it. He weighs 30 kilos more than I do (I’m slim.) I like being picked up and held like a baby in a guy’s arms. If you are 5’5” and can do that, I will buy you a drink. I also think it’s fun to wear heels and have a guy shove his face in my tits and motor boat them, provided he lavishes me with praise on how pretty my body is; ) I have flaws myself. But I’m considered “weird” and generally men don’t notice me. I’m a bit awkward and not the “hot” girl in the room who every guy is drawn to, but I’ve got a good heart. I agree we should try to judge each other less. Notice us slightly shy girls and see what you get ; )
I thought twice before writing here because I saw the level of animosity & competition between tall women & shorter than average men. I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents. I’m not a heightist. I have dated short men. I was trying to point out that there are many sad prejudices in the world. As a tall women I have been laughed at, embarrassed, ridiculed, and so on. I have also had bad reactions for dating black men and having biracial children.Whatever is different is ridiculed! My son is going to be NBA material, it was just a fact. It makes no person better? Some men have been attracted to that aspect of me, the breeding big boy aspect. I’ve hated it and liked it. If he makes it, I’ll really like it. I was truly trying to give my opinion to unhappy with height people of either gender. Black men have treated me better (short and tall), so I said so. No value judgement, just facts. I raise my daughters with open minds and they are being crushed by a cruel world & have broken hearts. It’s a hard world! I was agreeing with you mostly, not disagreeing!
Here’s the thing, though: you go from taking your personal experience and use it to make the generalization that we’re all insecure about our heights, and therefore don’t deserve the same fair chance that everyone else gets. I’m not insecure about it at all. I’m me. I’ve come to accept that I will forever be short, and I’m fine with that. If anything, it makes me stand out. My point is, though, that society looks down on short men and denigrates us all. Society considers us inferior, unhealthy, incapable of protecting ourselves, and of lower moral character. What does society consider tall women? Healthy and athletically superior. The funny thing is that if you ask any geneticist what keeps any gene pool healthy, it’s a heterogenous population, one that has all types of people.
I read that yesterday, Vogue magazine well no longer promote a body image that glorifies women that look too skinny. Now imagine, for a second, that if a major fashion magazine that has incredible influence on how women around the world now is telling women how to think about their own body image, that maybe if more media took an interest in our plight, that maybe we could change these misconceptions, characterizations, and generalizations. People say hate the game, not the player. Well, what if we change the rules of the game?
@ANDRomEdA
ANDRomEdA says:
May 4, 2012 at 4:15 am
I thought twice before writing here because I saw the level of animosity & competition between tall women & shorter than average men. I thought I’d throw in my 2 cents.
2Short4u:
That would be suspiciously insincere if one has actually read this thread even superficially. Why? It’s because there is neither any evidence of animosity nor evidence of competition between tall women and shorter-than-average men. No. Against being a harasser? Yes, but for being a tall woman? No.
One is merely trying to incite a general hostility between taller-than-average women and shorter-than-average men (an animosity that doesn’t exist) in order to derail this topic. To surreptitiously misconstrue a deserved disdain for the constant badgering of a few posters (or really perhaps one consistently pretending to be yet another tall female with tall children) as a feud between distinct groups is typical of the harassment tactics that intolerants use.
Competition?
As Rob has mentioned, even YOU admit that tall women are revered as healthy breeding stock. Contradiction is always a hallmark of deceit.
It has been repeatedly explained how any bias against taller women is a whole order of magnitude less than the systemic marginalizing that shorter men face (especially in the online dating world.) The disingenuousness in ignoring this well-supported observation (be it by pretending to be yet another curiously similar poster or not) gets more obvious with each attempt.
Lol. Perhaps trying a name that starts with another letter, or, choosing fictional offspring with different ages from the previous avatar might help. However, people will probably still see through the paper-thin veil. Writing style, which reflect the underlying character is hard to hide.
Often fabrications carry an element of truth since stories are easier when they revolve around some personal experience.
It could well be that the real poster is the 15 year old teenager who is indeed struggling with some body image and social issues (That 15 year old is a consistent character in practically every “tall girl with kids” avatar so far.) Furthermore, unlike the innate trait of adult height, people who can’t admit that they are the cause of their own issues will often harass those they see as suitable targets (in this case “shorter men”) in an attempt to “fit in.” (“Hey! If I have contempt for what I think others see as outcasts, I’ll be more like the popular group!”) This is why the defence of height intolerance often manifests as this type of bullying.
ANDRomEdA says:
May 4, 2012 at 4:15 am
I’m not a heightist. I have dated short men. I was trying to point out that there are many sad prejudices in the world. As a tall women I have been laughed at, embarrassed, ridiculed, and so on. I have also had bad reactions for dating black men and having biracial children.Whatever is different is ridiculed!
2Short4u:
Merely claiming to not be something cannot negate the effects of acting like something. This behaviour has been covered above. While one speaks of having “dated short men” (couched as if it is some sort of critically acclaimed act of charity,) it is in contrast to the current “I date only large black men” statement only one post earlier.
Trying to point out that there are many sad prejudices in the world is the same old dismissal of trying to bury the marginalizing of shorter-than-average men as “just another social tort.”
As has been mentioned (and you did allude to having at least perused this thread,) this slyly attempts to ignore the relative magnitude and prevalence of height intolerance in comparison to other discrimination. Even if the prejudice was somewhat equal (which is isn’t) applying such a “perspective view” is just a form of the “perfect world” fallacy. That is to say, since there is no “all-correcting perfect solution” we shouldn’t focus on solutions for only some of the problems.
Whatever is different is ridiculed?
No, this is another dismissal. Six-pack abs are very rare and essentially different. So are different coloured left and right eyes. I have my doubts that they are ridiculed just for being different (or even seen as something undesirable at all.)
You may have well been laughed at or ridiculed for being tall, but how many “must be this tall to be considered, sorry, hee hee, that’s just a me” statements do you come across on a dating site? Until you fully comprehend how that attitude is nothing but bigotry, you can’t pretend to understand. How many shorter-than-average men attempt to hijack blogs on the plight of Taller-than-average women? Please. I challenge you to point all of us to one such event.
It’s like not only having no compassion for a wheelchair bound person when they can’t navigate a curb, it’s the further insult of dismissing their plaint by saying, “hey it’s tough for everyone, get over it. Be funny. Try going to the gym. It’s your Napoleon attitude.”
ANDRomEdA says:
May 4, 2012 at 4:15 am
My son is going to be NBA material, it was just a fact. It makes no person better? Some men have been attracted to that aspect of me, the breeding big boy aspect. I’ve hated it and liked it. If he makes it, I’ll really like it. I was truly trying to give my opinion to unhappy with height people of either gender. Black men have treated me better (short and tall), so I said so. No value judgement, just facts. I raise my daughters with open minds and they are being crushed by a cruel world & have broken hearts. It’s a hard world! I was agreeing with you mostly, not disagreeing!
2Short4u:
Your post lords the implied “fact” that your son is tall enough to be considered for the NBA yet pretend to be compassionate to the trials of shorter-than-average men. This is more like an attempt to lightly camouflage a stab at them.
No value judgements?
Unless you have dated a statistically significant number of tall, short, this ethnicity or that ethnicity man (and that would have to be a pretty large figure,) your conclusions are based on nothing BUT a biased judgement. The deliberate and repugnant racial stereotyping in your first post is hardly the product of an “open mind.” However, it does help drive home the connection between heightism, low self-esteem and immaturity.
So, yes. In that sense, you are “agreeing” with your opposition.
@ Everyone
2Short4u:
Note the “Unhappy with height people” comment.
The shorter-than-average men posting their stories here are not “unhappy with [their] height.” They are unhappy with how they are marginalized because of an innate and immutable trait, but few if any are personally unhappy with their stature. This Freudian slip betrays a feeling that it’s the victim of intolerance that is at fault (and largely because THEY hate themselves) rather than those who hold the prejudice: a typical mindset of the intolerant.
Projection of low self-esteem is a trademark of irrational intolerance.
The post also attempts to propagate the myth that shorter-than-average men will produce shorter-than-average offspring (ignoring that diet in early childhood has a lot more to do with eventual adult height.)
There are serious doubts cast by this post as to the sincerity of claimed compassion to the mating challenges faced by shorter-than-average men. If anything it shows how some so passionately project self-loathing on their objects of contempt that they will continue to conjure up characters as a way to badger and denigrate those they irrationally deem as “unworthy.”
Irrational prejudice is a pretty ugly trait.
Women do not wish to be thought of as “healthy” or “athletically superior”. Those are both manly traits! Tall women like most would like to be thought of as sexy, pretty, & feminine. That is a tall women’s hex!!!!
I never said I thought short men should have low self esteem? Good for you. At this point in my life, I too have good self esteem, not based on cultural ideals. Self esteem is a gift not brought to or grasped by many women, certainly not tall ones. I imagine it might be that way for short men as well.
If I had $1 for the questions I had about basketball when I was young, I’d be rich. No I’m not sporty! My daughter’s are not either. We are girly girls who want to feel feminine & yes with hatred, tv jokes, and judgement it is very hard!
I imagine it is the same for really short men as well.
I modeled extensively when I was younger, and yes the fashion industry is indeed demanding. I’m a little sad because I fear if they do away with tall and slender girls we’ll be left a “new ideal”. I’m guessing she will have a fake butt, a lot of fillers, and be minuscule? After that something new will come around? The truth is in the 80’s it was all about boobs & blonde, Now it’s all brunette & butt… Women will never all be able to live up to a ideal. We’re just people..If shorter men feel that awful feeling of being unacceptable by societies standard then I empathize! That’s I think what many of the tall women here have been trying to get across! But if you want to call it “hijacking” then so be it?
It is a hard world that we are so harshly judged. Having experienced on-line dating, profiling is best left to crime detectives and the like lol. And for all you short (which is such relative term) gentlemen out there…take heart…I met my boyfriend at work…in person. SO OBVIOUSLY I knew he was 4 10. And very slender. He’s little- okay. I’m only 5 5 myself and he refers to me as so tall!…so he’s a fun height for me and I am for him…he says the view is fabulous from that angle as well as when we are face to face lol. We are very comfortable with who we are and how we are made…and we know we are the butt of many a joke. We laugh because we know how much pleasure we take in each other and don’t care…Somebody calls him shorty it’s no different than calling me Redhead. It’s a fact. Any one with any kind of experience should know there are advantages, not just disadvantages, to all heights, shapes, and sizes…cruel people make lousy lovers…I say have fun with who you are and how you and your love are made…anything less is missing out! ;)
@Andromed-ila
2Short4u:
As usual, you have avoided acknowledgment of the faults in your foundation (that many have pointed out) and continue to post the same irrational arguments. This is nothing more that the continuation of the harassment campaign of a typical intolerant. Excellent. Please continue.
In greater detail…
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
Women do not wish to be thought of as “healthy” or “athletically superior”. Those are both manly traits! Tall women like most would like to be thought of as sexy, pretty, & feminine. That is a tall women’s hex!!!!
2Short4u:
Within the context of being attractive as mating material, either gender would be happy to be thought of as “healthy” or “athletically superior.” Furthermore, “healthy” is pretty much gender agnostic and athleticism is not to be mistaken as strictly masculine (one needs to be particularly athletic to be successful as a ballerina for example.) So… WRONG.
Sexy, pretty and feminine? None of these traits are mutually exclusive of being healthy and athletic (although being healthy is probably an underlying part of those three ideals.) WRONG, again.
A tall women’s hex? Hardly. There are many tall women that are considered to be sexy, pretty and feminine. In the CONTEXT of this blog, height intolerants automatically exclude shorter-than-average men and in essence consider them to be inferior and un-manly (as far as mating is concerned.) We have seen many examples of this. So… your concept is WRONG again.
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
I never said I thought short men should have low self esteem? Good for you.
2Short4u:
Nowhere has anyone accused you of saying that “you though short men should have low self-esteem.” Couching this as a rhetorical question is just purposely misrepresenting your critic in order to refute them: the standard “straw man” argument fallacy.
But, if comprehensive challenges have caused a misconstruing of the comment about “projection of low self-esteem” to mean this, please review the paragraph to understand it in context.
Incidentally, people who can’t admit they have erred, and instead choose to ignore compelling information to repeat fallacious mantra or employ straw-man arguments (usually to save face) are, you guessed it, likely suffering from low self-esteem.
People who go as far as creating new avatars with the same yet relatively rare back-story to create an illusion of a greater support for one’s claims, well, even you can guess correctly to what level of self-esteem that behaviour reflects. Lol.
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
At this point in my life, I too have good self esteem, not based on cultural ideals. Self esteem is a gift not brought to or grasped by many women, certainly not tall ones. I imagine it might be that way for short men as well.
2Short4u:
Really. This blog is all about you (…not.)
If someone has to resort to a self-proclamation instead of relying on audience members to judge on their own, it is unlikely that their own assessment is accurate. In fact, the actions of repeating fallacy in spite of it being exposed, misrepresenting opposing views in order to refute, using hackneyed stereotypes to support arguments, etc. These are the actions of adolescent self-righteousness and hardly that of well-adjusted adulthood.
Self-esteem is a “gift” one gives to oneself.
It begins with realizing that irrationally “hating” is a defence mechanism. It has a chance to grow when one realizes that bullying and harassing never nourishes the hunger of wanting to be accepted as superior. All that does is allow the bully to avoid the truths (one of those truths being that THEY are the problem, not the victim of their ridicule.) Repeating fallacious mantra is the manifestation of that avoidance.
Stop believing in the lies: that goes a long way towards actually gaining some self-esteem.
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
If I had $1 for the questions I had about basketball when I was young, I’d be rich. No I’m not sporty! My daughter’s are not either. We are girly girls who want to feel feminine & yes with hatred, tv jokes, and judgement it is very hard!
2Short4u:
Lol. When you were younger as in when you were 14 just last year?
Wanting to “feel” a certain way shouldn’t be dependent on how a small percentage (people callous enough to poke fun that way are few but vocal) of others view you. If you are a feminine creature, than you should feel every bit a feminine creature. It’s no stretch to see that practically every short-than-average guy “feels” like a man (Which is probably why they would take offence to being falsely viewed as not being one.) No amount of hatred, TV jokes and judgment from peers should make a guy “feel” anything less than that.
With reasonably intact self-esteem, how others denigrate will neither affect your self-image nor make it difficult to maintain it. Really. It’s not much of a challenge when one actually has strength in character. Since one admits that it’s “very hard,” the claimed “good self-esteem” is probably not true. (Yes, you said “we” so you were not just referring to your “daughters.”)
Again, one can be “sporty” and feminine too: they are NOT mutually exclusive traits.
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
I imagine it is the same for really short men as well.
2Short4u:
I can’t speak for directly for “really short men”, but it is doubtful that, in general, they have anywhere near the fragility of character that you speak of. Of course, when they don’t exhibit this weakness, they apparently have a “Napoleon Complex.”
Firstly, there’s little evidence of really short men hanging out on “really taller women” blogs in order to surreptitiously denigrate them (as in pretending to “support” their cause, but in reality taking a jab by lording the relative “attractiveness” of invented characters over them.) Secondly, few if any shorter-than-average men are soliciting for advice. Thirdly, in general, they are especially not seeking pity (it is clear that their detractors do though as we have seen time and time again.)
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
I modeled extensively when I was younger, and yes the fashion industry is indeed demanding. I’m a little sad because I fear if they do away with tall and slender girls we’ll be left a “new ideal”. I’m guessing she will have a fake butt, a lot of fillers, and be minuscule? After that something new will come around?
2Short4u:
Lol. Same old back-story. But, OK, we’ll play along…
Those “ideals” are just that. They are generally not realistic and the fact that most men are not swayed by the concepts of perfection as set by the fashion industry as far as mate selection is concerned has already been covered. Hence, the hyperbole into the next “ideal” is pretty much irrelevant.
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
The truth is in the 80′s it was all about boobs & blonde, Now it’s all brunette & butt… Women will never all be able to live up to a ideal. We’re just people..
2Short4u:
Fine. Since you feel this needs addressing, prove it. Create a blog of your own about how women shouldn’t be constantly forced to live up this ideal. If you were sincere about it, you’d be spending your time there to spread the word about it.
Coming here to talk about that is just hijacking (though one pretends to not realize that.)
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
If shorter men feel that awful feeling of being unacceptable by societies standard then I empathize! That’s I think what many of the tall women here have been trying to get across.
2Short4u:
Once again, actions speak louder than words.
If one truly has empathy, then practice that empathy by allow the shorter-than-average men to speak out on their challenges without harassment. Accept the fact that the challenges of taller-than-average women are nowhere as dire or prevalent as that of shorter-than-average men in the online dating scene (as this IS what this blog is about.)
If “many of the tall women here” (or just one or two pretending to be many) were trying to get their empathy across, they wouldn’t continue to ignore it when their fallacious arguments and deflections are pointed out and instead repeat them over and over again.
Andromeda says:
May 4, 2012 at 10:12 pm
But if you want to call it “hijacking” then so be it?
2Short4u:
Nice try but it’s not that easy to dismiss. It’s called “hijacking” because that’s what it is.
Restating the beginning of this response…
As usual, you have avoided acknowledgment of the faults in your foundation (that many have pointed out) and continue to post the same irrational arguments. This is nothing more that the continuation of the harassment campaign of a typical intolerant.
I am a 5’3″ male, and find a lot of the comment on here appalling, but entertaining nonetheless.
First off, maybe I am lucky to say this… I have been with plenty of women. 32 to be exact, and I am 24 years old. The myth that a short male cannot get a woman is exactly that, a myth. Essentially, it often boils down to learned helplessness. Many men (and not just short men) tend to take the first rejection as an assumed constraint that all following instances will resemble the initial rejection. If we all quit after the first (or even hundred) attempts, there are many luxuries that we may still be existing without. If you think discovering electricity, inventing a vehicle, or creating particle printers is easier than finding a woman, my heart goes out to you.
Life is about putting yourself out there and naturally attracting those who find your true qualities to be intriguing; whether it be kindness, ambition, intelligence, or a similar hobby. There are plenty of terrible men and women out there who go for physical traits first, and most end up in the same lonely turmoil as they probably were in their initial state.
Be confident, be independent, and be adventurous. Let others see your ability to look past a simple physical characteristic, and they will follow your lead.
Sure, if I were taller my number may be exponentially higher. However, I could focus on all of the girls I couldn’t swing, or I could pride myself on those that I have. and for those that I couldn’t, I took note on how to approach the next woman.
As far as the original shit comment that Rosa made, she is a typical lonely, judgemental bitch with a slew of father issues. Girls who have been raised as respectable women have the ability to find the true beauty in any situation or person that they encounter. They may not be as prevalent as we may like, but genuine women do exist. Go get em’ boys. Perception is everything, and perception is something that we can manipulate accordingly. Act tall and confident, and others around you shrink.
There’sAlwaysMore says “genuine women do exist.”
I won’t disagree with him because they do.
There are lots of “genuine” heightist women who are extra proud of who they are and classify everyone else who doesn’t measure up as second class. Mostly from my experience they are the taller-model types who act like their sh*t doesn’t stink! Short women are just as bad in their disdain for short men and they wear just as big a capital “B” hat as the tall girls. There are lots of “genuinely” superficial women who have not a care in this world for any man shorter than they are and wish these little guys could be eradicated from the earth. There are also lots of “genuinely” evil, average height to tall women who take tremendous pride in being hurtful to short men and women too.
Short guys who act tall are more likely to get labelled as Napoleanic or annoyingly aggressive. I don’t encouarge short guys to act tall but to keep your head up and do your best to enjoy the world without focusing on making a woman happy or needing one in your life. If you live your life with a positive kick in your step while treating others with kindness, people and more importantly, women will want to surround you. It’s called positive energy. Heightists women rarely have positive energy because her personal spark is always predicated on the man’s height and not her own energy.
Most tall girls started out being not just close to 6 ft, but that height in a sea of 5 ft middle schoolers. That awkwardness and insecurity about just being BIGGER than everyone else can persist for a long time — sometimes forever. Similar, in a lot of ways, to how short guys can carry insecurity about their size for their whole lives. Short guys and tall girls should be able to share their similar experiences, it’s a shame that just being in each others’ presence triggers that insecurity (hence all the animosity).
@S
2Short4u:
In summary, there is no animosity between Shorter-than-average men and Taller-than-average women (neither here on this blog nor outside in the real world.) This is just an invention of a few (if not a single) poster as an attempt to mire this discussion into a flame-war (as well as surreptitiously dismiss the plaint with the lie that shorter-than-average guys are just being more sensitive than other outcasts.)
The reasons outlined in your post are unsupportive of your argument. Furthermore, being dubious in nature, they betray an agenda to promote the “animosity” misconception.
How the challenges of taller-than-average women differ in both prevalence and magnitude from that of shorter-than-average men has been succinctly laid out numerous times here. To ignore this and continue to attempt crowding out discussion on this blog with these digressions is nothing more than harassment.
Disagree?
We will prove this in detail…
– – – – –
S says:
May 21, 2012 at 7:44 am
Most tall girls started out being not just close to 6 ft, but that height in a sea of 5 ft middle schoolers.
2Short4u:
Middle school surrounds the “growth spurt” period of females (somewhere around their 12th year.) Even after that period, “most” taller-than-average women are about 6 inches taller than their average schoolmates. They are definitely not “6 Ft” when their friends are “5 Ft”. If they were, they would be anomalies that would eventually be far taller than average. Since you qualified your assertion with “most”, it does not include these outliers.
The statement a gross exaggeration at best and is essentially not true. It cannot offer any support to your position.
S says:
May 21, 2012 at 7:44 am
That awkwardness and insecurity about just being BIGGER than everyone else can persist for a long time — sometimes forever. Similar, in a lot of ways, to how short guys can carry insecurity about their size for their whole lives.
2Short4u:
Sure, being 6 inches taller can be cause for being ostracized. It is a “visible” marker that is hard to hide. Then again, so are many other things. These include the immutable like ethnicity and hair type. They may include not as immutable, but practically so, such as relative family financial status, culture or language challenges.
Being outcast can cause one to carry insecurity. However, this is where the argument you present falls apart.
We are talking about the dating challenges of shorter-than-average men with an emphasis on how the online arena has exaggerated these challenges. The main focus of a boy’s life in those years is really about hanging around other boys. Few shorter-than-average boys (none, really) were excluded from group activities because of their height.
Yes. Even in those early years, guys don’t really care about the height of other guys. They certainly do rate each other on their alpha qualities, but take note that it is not “height” that got you on any particular team; it was your skills on the playing field.
No. Shorter-than-average boys do not have an inferiority complex from being shorter than average. In fact, few of the men posting here exhibit any insecurity at all. They are not pleased with how they are marginalized, but they are not insecure about their height. This is more of the projection of the observer’s low self-esteem that has been mentioned.
Again, IT IS THE HEIGHT RESTRICTOR that sets the restriction: it is not this fabricated insecurity of the shorter-than-average man. This irrational dislike for shorter men is a trait of the height restrictor and trying to pin it on some invented “insecurity” of the object of disdain is just the usual “blame the victim” propaganda.
In contrast, height Restrictors carry this insecurity you speak of into their adult lives. That is why they chase trophies and avoid what THEY perceive as a detriment (being seen with “dear gawd!” a shorter-than-average man.) Many will go as far as falsely promoting this voluntary prejudice as an innate trait (“it’s natural instinct”) in order to justify their lack of self-confidence in their own mind.
S says:
May 21, 2012 at 7:44 am
Short guys and tall girls should be able to share their similar experiences, it’s a shame that just being in each others’ presence triggers that insecurity (hence all the animosity).
2Short4u:
Well… the qualifier here is “SIMILAR”.
It has been clearly outlined on numerous occasions how there is a distinct DISSIMILARITY between both the prevalence and depth of negativity experienced by the two groups (shorter-than-average men and taller-than-average women.) To ignore this is just disambiguation in order to create a false defence: the classic straw-man argument.
The challenge to point all readers to SIMILAR cases of taller-than-average women being overtly told to NOT RESPOND to a dating ad has been curiously ignored.
The challenge to provide some evidence that this happens anywhere as often as it does for shorter-than-average men has been equally avoided.
Instead, we have these attempts to invent an animosity that does not exist. However, that isn’t a “shame.” It is an allegory on how some need to avoid truths in order to promote a prejudice (Yes. Applying deflective tactics or being dismissive of the issue is essentially promoting the prejudice.)
To be clear, being in the presence of posters is agnostic of their height or gender. The ONLY insecurity being triggered is that of height restrictors. That is why they persist in attempting to obfuscate the issue.
– – – – –
2Short4u:
In summary, there is no animosity between Shorter-than-average men and Taller-than-average women (neither here on this blog nor outside in the real world.) This is just an invention of a few (if not a single) poster as an attempt to mire this discussion into a flame-war (as well as surreptitiously dismiss the plaint with the lie that shorter-than-average guys are just being more sensitive than other outcasts.)
I was 5’11 at 11 and never grew a cenimeter after that think for a second of the disses I got imagine …
@…hates all of you!
A chick who is tall & hates all of you! says:
May 27, 2012 at 1:41 am
“I was 5’11 at 11 and never grew a cenimeter after that think for a second of the disses I got imagine …”
2Short4u:
Disingenuous as always. Lol. Based on your “facts”…
Being 5’11” as an 11 year-old female, and to grow no further than that puts you in a very rare group. That group being one of very early onset of puberty as well as being notably tall before entering puberty (a requirement if puberty happened so early and one stopped at 5’11”.) In most (really all) early onset puberty cases, the woman ends up shorter than average (because they start their growth at a lower height).
Of course, even if this were true, it does not speak to the DISPARITY in both the PREVALENCE and INTENSITY of prejudice that shorter-than-average men face in the dating game (especially the online version.) Sure, you were “dissed,” but do you have the breadth and depth challenges these guys face today (including the constant harassment via hijacking of threads about their issue?)
Even if you were “dissed” in those years, this negative experience should not permeate into adulthood as an irrational hatred for “all” (which by inference means at least all those who do not promote heightism.) This is largely because there is relatively little aversion to taller-than-average women in adult life (and especially in comparison to that of shorter-than-average men.) Besides, if you were truly feeling like an outcast, how could you treat others this way as an adult? Of course the question of maturity comes into play (hence it is the observer, and not the observed.)
At any rate, every “hater” in this world could rely on the excuse of “well, people ‘dissed’ me, so I now have reason to target hate towards some visible minority or at the very least continue to harp about my problems, even when it has been shown to be incomparable, as a way to hijack a thread.” (Actually, a lot of hater’s do.) For that reason, posting such a comment is useful in demonstrating how “haters” practice denial, irrationality and harbour self-loathing in order to promote their own brand of hatred.
@ Everybody
Antagonists usually resort to referencing increasingly more anomalous cases as a reason to promote a condition once it is shown that the typical excuses are nonsense. To maintain some level of support, these rare cases are often embellishments of personal experience, but will quickly enter into the realms of the ridiculous as lies get harder to support.
Take for instance the 5’11” and no further height growth anecdote. Puberty may vary in when it begins, but the time it takes, as well as the points at which things happen is pretty much consistent. You may trigger the start a year earlier or later, but all of it still happens in about 4 years: it takes the same amount of time to complete the “tasks” of puberty.
If one was 5’11” at 11 and grew no further, then the end of the height growth, and puberty, was reached. Going back 4 years would put the beginning of puberty at 7 years of age. 7 years of age! That is extremely early. Though not impossible, if that was coupled with very tall adult height, it is really getting into the “rare cases” region.
How rare? Consider that early puberty in women is directly related to shorter adult height (you start shorter, so you end up shorter.) In order to be 5’11” at 11 AND not grow any further means extremely tall pre-puberty height coupled with very early puberty… that’s very, very rare indeed. However “invented characters” or embellished stories are always custom fit and often without looking at how unrealistic the “facts” become. (Maybe it was actually 5’9” and 12 years, and the final height was 5’11” at 14… but stories need to fit the argument, right?)
Notice how supporting arguments tend to become these extremely anomalous ones once detractors are called out for being spurious. Lol.
Even so, a 5’11” 11 year-old woman (since puberty ended, she would be a women) shouldn’t end up “hating” others because of any amount of teasing. As an adult, this teasing would be replaced by admiration (really, who out there has a problem with a 5’11” woman?)
No. This is just another attempt to justify the constant hijacking on this thread. However, it also serves to prove that haters are few but usually very vocal and passionate about their irrational hatred.
Women get their periods at 10 to 12. You can Only grow 1 to 2 inches after the onset of your period. Females are usually fully grown at 12 to 13. Men grow til 18- 20 years of age! That’s why you are confused. Tall women Are tall by adolescence and thus very unhappy and insecure!!!!!!
@ Everybody
2Short4u:
Here is clear proof of how some employ distorted facts or pure falsehood in order to defend their irrationality. As it has been maintained, intolerance rarely has any basis in truth: The problem is the observer and NOT the observed.
@hatesallofyou:
2Short4u:
Lol. The hole one is digging just keeps getting deeper.
In summary, your “facts” are warped to the point of being essentially false and are growing more spurious as one attempts to support an initial embellishment (or outright lie depending how much was implied.) Furthermore, you have purposely misrepresented your critic’s position in order to employ a straw-man argument (that your opposition is “confused”.)
Since you are so adamant in your assertion, we will cover this in detail:
= = = =
atallchickwhohatesallofyou says:
June 1, 2012 at 5:37 am
“Women get their periods at 10 to 12.”
2Short4U:
While there is some variance from the norm, the average age of menarche is about 12.5 years in the United States (it’s curiously later by a couple of months in Canada… must be the cold winters.) In CONTEXT (something that those who employ tactics like straw-man arguments like to avoid) it should be noted that menarche as early as 7 or 8 does occur, but less than 10% have the onset before their 11th year.
To claim menarche is usually between 10 and 12 is purposely ignoring the real average of 12.5 and how little of the population actually varies from it. It is deliberately citing falsehood.
Of course, in CONTEXT, your claim is that you grew no further (as in no further than a single cm) after 11. That would mean, in the best-case scenario for your argument, that your menarche was at the latest shortly after your 9th birthday… very rare is that not?
atallchickwhohatesallofyou says:
June 1, 2012 at 5:37 am
“You can Only grow 1 to 2 inches after the onset of your period.”
2Short4U:
ROFL. Please. You are now resorting to mythology. The average female will increase a further 3 inches or more after menarche. Don’t think so? There’s lots of literature on this. I’m not going to scan medical journals for you, so here is a handy link to something online:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1070801/
Search for “Myth: menarche means the end of growth is near” on the page … I guess the author also got tired of the typical mythology that the misinformed cling to. Lol.)
Again, in CONTEXT, YOUR CLAIM was that you essentially stopped growing at 11 years of age. This “fact” remains unsupported even by your “1 to 2 inches” misinformation. So… wrong, again. Please consider doing some real research before throwing up nonsense like this. Otherwise it’s just too easy to refute.
atallchickwhohatesallofyou says:
June 1, 2012 at 5:37 am
Females are usually fully grown at 12 to 13.
2Short4U:
Specious as usual (as in WRONG again.)
The height velocity tapers off closer to about 16 years of age for the average female in the first world. At 12 the average female is right in the middle of maximum height velocity. Your “fact” can be seen as nothing more than an intentional falsehood to defend your false “facts.”
Don’t think so?
Well, apparently the real facts don’t support your claims:
http://www.kidsgrowth.com/stages/viewgrowthcharts.cfm?id=GH318
Invent facts to support whatever stories you want. However be aware that the real facts are pretty easy to find and share. I suppose these people are “not as informed as they think they are” since only YOUR version of truth is valid? ROFLMAO.
atallchickwhohatesallofyou says:
June 1, 2012 at 5:37 am
Men grow til 18- 20 years of age!
2Short4U:
Applying the same cut-off point as for the female chart, it can be seen that males will experience the same taper-off at about 17 years of age:
http://www.kidsgrowth.com/stages/viewgrowthcharts.cfm?id=BH318
If one were to argue that the chart doesn’t level out till 19-20, then one would have to apply the same observation to the female chart (which doesn’t level out till 18-19.) Therefore… Wrong again. So much for another warped view of the facts. Lol.
atallchickwhohatesallofyou says:
June 1, 2012 at 5:37 am
That’s why you are confused.
2Short4u:
I am not “confused” at all. In fact, like most of the audience, I am well aware that the criticism levied was that “most” tall females do not spend their middle school years about 12 INCHES taller than most of their peers. You introduced this “I was 5’11 at 11 and stopped growing at that age” in attempt to provide evidence that the criticism was inapt. It is now clearly shown (with citation too) that you are creating “facts” and bending truth to defend what is now becoming more highly fictionalized anecdote than a truthful retelling of one’s experience.
There is no “confusion” except this weak attempt at misdirecting the reasons for the criticism. Pretty lame. Try again (or will it be retreat to “oopsie?”)
atallchickwhohatesallofyou says:
June 1, 2012 at 5:37 am
Tall women Are tall by adolescence and thus very unhappy and insecure!!!!!!
2Short4u:
Even if this were so, it is not in the CONTEXT of why your original position was chastised. You are merely continuing to beat a straw man in an attempt to save face.
Furthermore, it still does not address how taller-than-average women face anything near the social tort that shorter-than-average men clearly face in the dating arena (on and off line.) You, as well as all other detractors, have been asked to provide some evidence that taller-than-average women too have clearly written restrictions (“must be this tall, or this short, to answer this ad”) or constant harassment (Read this thread for instance, Lol) when they speak out about their challenges on a blog ABOUT THEIR ISSUE. To this point, there has been no attempt to address this. Instead we get the usual deflections in order to justify the hijacking.
It could well be that you are indeed unhappy and insecure, but it does not mitigate one from being a bully. If anything it proves that bullying is a consequence of these things.
However one’s childhood experience of being a much taller than average girl ALONE is unlikely to cause such hostility. To constantly harangue about one’s issues when they are clearly off-topic (the reasons it is off-topic this has been pointed out many times on this blog) is just “attention-seeking” and speaks to a level of bitterness beyond normal ranges. This resentment likely stems from a more CURRENT feeling of isolation brought on by other issues.
If you actually had some real insight, it might be acceptable. But as you have degenerated to this habit of deliberately quoting seriously distorted facts (or at the very least employing seriously misrepresentations of fact) and deflecting from arguments in which your position is indefensible is more evidence that height intolerants (or those that deceptively defend them) really have no rational support.
By way of your own admission, it illustrates how one can harbour a great deal of misplaced hostility due to personal unhappiness and insecurity.
= = = = =
@ Everybody
2Short4u:
Here is clear proof of how some employ distorted facts or pure falsehood in order to defend their irrationality. As it has been maintained, intolerance rarely has any basis in truth: The problem is the observer and NOT the observed.
Being a 5′ woman I welcome the shorter man, though I do think I would have a hard time with someone shorter (very few out there). I find that my height is not in a lot of men’s preferred height range, though in person I appear taller. My theory is that a lot of people do not know their actual height.
The body size thing bothers me. I am small to average so I list myself as average because athletic to me seems like I should have an olympian’s body (I do not). Be honest
I agree, I think a lot of people aren’t necessarily lying about their height, they just flat out don’t know/haven’t been measured since high school. But I would think 3″ would be the most that that guesswork would allow for.
The only thing I can compare the bias towards shorter men to would be being a black female. It’s been statistically proven that black women are the least desired and receive the least amount of responses compared to other races of men and women (including black men). I’ve also noticed this a lot just coming across profiles myself. Men will put EVERY single race except black/african decent, that includes the “other” option.
I don’t consider it being racist, just a preference. Just like my preference is The Rock…whether he comes in the 5’7″ model or the 6’2″ edition :) I’d rather not waste my time with someone who isn’t truly open to dating black women.
Although I think on a sheer numbers basis shorter men have a harder time than black females, I’d say it would be the only physical characteristic that would compare to the discrimination of shorter men on dating site (i.e. a physical characteristic that one has absolutely no control over).
It may suck for the biases out there, but put your true height and get the quality responses from women who aren’t so shallow. I admit I used to be a height-ist?, as well, but I realized why I was and I’ve since changed my tune! I was looking for the masculine protective characteristics that I thought came naturally with tall men, so NOT the case!
My favorite example of this is Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes. He’s a good 2″ shorter than her, but you can tell in each photo that they take that he is the man in the relationship, regardless of his height. He walks on the outside of the sidewalk, he shields her from the media, a traditional masculine role. Those are characteristics that can’t been determined by height. I think that’s what most women are looking for and like me they assumed that only taller men could provide it. I’ve been lucky enough to meet some shorter men (5’8″ and under), that have proven me 100% wrong, and I’m LOVING my new possibilities by broadening my mind a few inches ;)
Hi Melanie,
As a black man, a short one at that, I’ll give you my response why most black men I know who are short like me and some who are tall, don’t approach black women. I have no doubt that you and other black women may strongly disagree with me because you probably do get approached by black men. Personally, it is very telling in todays world when I constantly hear enough black women complain that there are little to no good black men anymore. Look no further than this as a clear indication of black men who are interested in other women of colour and dating foreign women.
From my experience and what I’ve heard and seen from other black men, black women are the most height concerned of all women. Tall, short or average height, these women care the most about being with a taller guy and they are sometimes wickedly cruel to shorter guys who have the guts to approach them. I’ve had enough black women rudely kiss their teeth at me in frustration when I approached them because they feel that I’m getting in the way of the tall guy they’ve got their eyes locked on. Other black women have even laughed at me for trying and told me to “come back in a few years” when you’re a man or don’t bother trying if you can’t grow any taller. This might sound like a broad statement and it probably is because I know that there are lots of black women in the world who I haven’t approached that behave contrary to the heightist norms of North American standards. Black women live, hold out and die religiously for NBA quality black men. Even guys who are 6’0 don’t qualify because they aren’t a Kobe, Lebron or a D-Wade. 6’4 seems to be the absolute minimum that a black woman in todays world will accept for a black man’s height. Another thing, black women are serious size queens and they will immediately dismiss you due to their strong beliefs of shorter guys being small below the belt. Black women also like the ching ching and the bling bling more than other races in my experience. So, if you don’t have the money to support her and shower her, don’t even bother trying.
You talk about shorter guys proving you wrong? Why should a short guy even have to prove his worth if he has a good heart and treats you right? This is one of the very reasons why I don’t waste time on black women who need concrete proof that shorter guys are men and good people. It boggles my mind where these women get their theories and beliefs. With that being said, I let black women come to me because if they don’t, they lose out on another black guy that another woman of colour will gladly accept. Furthermore, if she approaches me, she’s more likely to be less height inclined when seeing my short frame at face value. One more thing, white women love me off and have treated me a lot more respectfully and have shown better manners than black women. Forgive me again for being a little general and I apolozige, but more and more young black women have poor command of the english language. They rely solely on “hip hop” culture english to communicate. This is a big time turnoff for me.
So, I commend you for broadening your horizons and applaud you for your new found open mind to shorter guys. Just don’t take it too personality if a man asks you what took you so long to wake up from your ignorance.
I’m a guy that traveled the US as a musician….. Being quite honest, I had more women in one week than most guys had in several months. I am 5’ 6” and shorter than all the other guys in the band, with one exception. He was 5’5” and not a handsome guy. What was the magic? I love women, always treat them with respect. I treated them like as a sexy woman, and a fun filled lover. My high was having a woman achieve an amazing orgasm. The other short guy treated woman as I did, but he had one advantage, He had a great sense of humor, the gift of gab. He had women inviting him to a homemade meals several times a week. Woman would pick him up and take him to the movies, dinner and the beach! How you treat a woman is the most important factor in your successes. Of course there are those women that want a man for his social status, financial standing, the kind of car he drives. I have no interest in those woman and they probably have no interest in me …. who cares!
Seriously ,after reading all the crap above im crying inside ! Thanx for all these girls who make us feel that we are unwanted creatures on this earth.I am started to hate girls now specially short girls who gets annoyed when a short men talks to them and some of them have opinion to rounded up and shot the short men ! BUT FOR WHAT???,,,,who the HELL are you?? u r not a cinderella or any beauty queen or any angel fallen form heaven.Even u girls don’t deserve right men cuz with your insane mentality you will spoil that guy too. Im a 5’4 guy ,good looking face, good shape even i have a master degree in engineering .im just lacking in 2-3 inches of height .thats it..! i knw i dnt have much potential to gain height but i have enough potential to gain a good life for myself and for my female partner….Now i DONT wish to gain height…. for what ? to gain the attention of stupid girls with teenage mentality !! sorry i dnt need ur attention anymore…I am what i am ! im thankful to god to bless me with a healthy body cuz millions of people are suffering from incurable diseases on earth and they dont give a damn about their height. !!!
If we are to use this blog, as well as match.com preferences, as evidence, there seems to be little doubt that women have a strong preference for tall men, not just taller than they, but tall in general. As as 5’7 1/2 man (…yes, you bet I round up and not down on my match.com profile), I have experienced some of the same rejection as many other men as regards my short stature. I’ve had some success, so I’m not ready to abandon internet dating due to a prevailing feminine standard that I fail to meet. The women with rigid height requirements fall into two camps: 1) Those who make personal judgments choices based upon an internal standard of conduct and 2) Those who make such based upon an external standard of conduct. Let me explain.
When a woman is operating on an internal standard of conduct, she bases her choices and decisions on how she truly feels, irrelevant of external conditions. If, for example, if she finds a particular man to be attractive and worthy of her affections, the reality that she will be taller than he when she’s wearing heels, or her what would her friends might think, or (worse) how it appears to strangers, are not conditions she takes into account. She is using an internal standard and bases her decisions without taking into consideration of external standards. She is honest. She might best epitomize Shakespeare’s words, “This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.” Now, and this is an important distinction, there are women who are simply not attracted to short men. It’s not a choice for some women. Be they vestiges from a primal past or some strong need and desire to be with a taller man, some women are simply and honestly not attracted to shorter men anymore than men are attracted to very heavy women. In all fairness, some women gravitate towards tall men, are still basing their decisions on an internal standard. It is only when she is dismissing a man to whom she has a physical attraction towards, or is otherwise acceptable to her, for concerns outside of herself that we might say she is behaving with an external standard of conduct.
When, however, a woman discounts a man, to whom she would otherwise be attracted, based upon externals such as how it would look or the general consensus of other women, she is operating under an external standard of conduct. Her values and judgments come from an external source: “I won’t be able to wear high heels” “We won’t look right together”, etc., etc. When, for example, a woman returns from a date with a short man and can say she had a wonderful time, and that he was engaging, polite, fun and attractive to her, but she decided to avoid a second date since her was short—she is using an external, not an internal standard, of conduct to make personal choices.
As for me, give me a gal who makes her de based on internals, for if she were to do that, she, no doubt, approaches life with a healthy and satisfied attitude towards life in general. As for the ladies who base their height preferences on externals, I’m not prepared to suggest that they are generally dishonest with themselves or overly concerned with others think. I would say, however, that they are no more honest that the short guy who fudges his height on his profile.
Cicero
There are very simple explanations for women who are guided by internal vs external standards.
The woman guided by external standards or peer pressure is blessed with good looks to start with. Those good looks are a form of currency in the social scene and help her circulate with the kind of beautiful people who validate her high opinion of herself. Since she has social liquidity, she naturally wants to get the highest bid on her inherited wealth. Such women are acutely aware of their relative value on the Meat Market. They know what minimum they will accept in a man and they can flaunt their capriciousness with impunity. Since slender attractive women are very scarce in America now, there is an escalating premium on women who have nothing to offer but the fact that they are NOT FAT. Such mediocre women are enjoying the fact that they can put up ridiculous demands on their match.com profile and get away with it.
The woman guided by internal standards or conscience is usually bereft of the universally-accepted currency of good looks. Her private currency may have great value to her but, unless it is recognized by others, it won’t get her anywhere. She will end up with the men the pretty ones have rejected. The one stash of currency in the safe that a lower grade woman can take out and use is SEX. Even then, it doesn’t go as far as when a pretty woman uses it.
When a woman has to use the one thing she has, because that’s all she has, the man she ends up settling for will catch hell later on because she’ll always feel ripped off and it’s HIS fault!
Truth is though relationships are based on the guy being taller. I work at the mall and watch couples all day. 99.9% of the time the man is taller. The taller the man the more significantly shorter the woman. If you see a 6’5 man chances are the girl he’s with is 5’0. If a man is 5’7 his girlfriend is usually 5’6. It’s rare to see two talls, common to see two averages (man taller though), and two short people somewhere in between. The big man with child size women seem the most overtly sexual, grabby PDA types, the averages hold hands, the shorts vary. On the rare occasions I see a taller woman with shorter man (no matter what height range they are) it seems a colder more distant contact. Two talls together (rare) usually hand holding like two averages.
No science here just observations.
I’m a tall woman who has not had great success with men, that’s probably why I notice these trends.
When I post a picture on online dating profiles I get a lot of response (I’m facially attractive, Iv’e been told). Since many men don’t read my profile they are often shocked and dismayed by my height when I ask them questions regarding how they feel about tall women. So yes you can as a tall woman get matches and emails etc. How many men would want you in “real life” is not good odds.
@ Everybody
2Short4u:
The observations noted in the post we refer to really just show that on average, men are taller than women.
However, it does NOT show that a shorter-man to taller-women coupling is less affectionate (publicly or privately) since the occurrence is actually a very rare situation. It does not show that the “man being taller” is a driver (innate or media-driven.) However, the behaviour of the much shorter woman and the much taller man could indicate the trophy status of the much taller man (which is what most plaintiffs have noted here.)
Note that the relative frequency or infrequency of the much-shorter-than-average man within a couple can’t be determined with the data (since we would have to know the frequency of available much-shorter-than-average men and compare it to the relative ratio in the coupled sample.) As well, it requires a much larger sample size.
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Details…
@ Salli
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
Truth is though relationships are based on the guy being taller. I work at the mall and watch couples all day. 99.9% of the time the man is taller.
2Short4u:
No. The cause and effect is not even tenuously connected with the given data. This “truth” cannot be deduced as the results point to other inherent factors.
What you are witnessing is really agnostic to this claim. What it IS showing is that, in general women are shorter than men (and by several inches too.) Since the main group of men hover around 5-7 to 5-11 and the female population will hover around 5-4 to 5-8 (depending on locale it may vary but so will the female height in the same way) you will see most couples with the man taller than the woman.
It would be like saying that relationships are “based” on right-handers seeking right-handers because that is what you usually see That’s wrong because it ignores that most people are right-handed. No, all the results would represent is the ratio of right-handed to left-handed people being heavily right-handed.
Similarly, the data doesn’t demonstrate that coupling is set by the relative height between the two genders (with the women basically having to be shorter) at all. It really just shows that men in the “main sequence” are practically all taller than the “main sequence” of women.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
The taller the man the more significantly shorter the woman.
2Short4u:
True. That is reflecting how taller than average men are coveted, but does not speak to whether or not shorter or much-shorter than average men are not. Although since your observations have not specifically referenced any really short men (as rare as really tall men), it could indicate, that they far less frequently coupled… which is what the plaintiffs have been mentioning: That media-driven bias is causing women to avoid coupling with shorter than average men.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
If you see a 6’5 man chances are the girl he’s with is 5’0. If a man is 5’7 his girlfriend is usually 5’6. It’s rare to see two talls, common to see two averages (man taller though), and two short people somewhere in between.
2Short4u:
True again, as this reflects the increased desire by the much-shorter than average woman to “compensate” with a much-taller than average man. Also consider that fact that this extremely-tall-man and very-short-woman coupling is visually very noticeable. Average with man taller? That’s just reflecting the difference between the main sequences again.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
The big man with child size women seem the most overtly sexual, grabby PDA types, the averages hold hands, the shorts vary.
2Short4u:
This overly demonstrative behaviour shows how the much-shorter woman is compensating by purposely drawing attention to her prize. Some may quip that it may be the man doing this, but consider that it is reasonable to assume that if a woman was not comfortable with this public display of affection, it wouldn’t be happening (certainly much less than vice-versa.)
The “averages” are just doing what the averages do and the “shorts” are too small a sampling to be of any statistical significance (especially in casual observation.)
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
On the rare occasions I see a taller woman with shorter man (no matter what height range they are) it seems a colder more distant contact.
2Short4u:
True. That is likely reflecting the self-consciousness of the women in the relationship. Again, the man is unlikely to be adverse to more physical demonstrations of affection. It is the woman that determines the level of interaction. However, the sample size is likely too small to make any sort of significant claim of causality.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
Two talls together (rare) usually hand holding like two averages.
2Short4u:
It’s rare because both populations are rare. Again, the sample size is far too small to be able to make any assertion if the behaviour is any different with respects to an average-to-average coupling.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
No science here just observations.
2Short4u:
No argument there and you should now be able to see why observations sometimes reflect what we “want” to see rather than what the truth really is.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
I’m a tall woman who has not had great success with men, that’s probably why I notice these trends.
2Short4u:
You may be looking for trends to satisfy a pre-determination. It’s how people could see the face of a man on the moon, or canals on Mars. The outliers such as the tall-tall and the short-short represent such small samplings that shy of a true scientific test, it would be difficult to determine if the behavioural trends is as you observe.
Even then, it is unlikely that these observations can be used to support any notion that the shorter-man-to-taller-woman coupling is one of generally “less affection” (at least publicly.) Which is something that one could mistakenly suggest.
Salli says:
June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
When I post a picture on online dating profiles I get a lot of response (I’m facially attractive, Iv’e been told). Since many men don’t read my profile they are often shocked and dismayed by my height when I ask them questions regarding how they feel about tall women. So yes you can as a tall woman get matches and emails etc. How many men would want you in “real life” is not good odds.
2Short4u:
Your experience is your experience, however, most of the shorter men that have posted here do not seem to have any issue with dating a taller woman.
The “shock and dismay” that these men are responding are not reflected in the attitudes of most men average, short or tall. However, at least you get a chance to “compete” for the attention of these men. The shorter than average guys here often aren’t even considered no matter how facially attractive they are.
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@Everybody
2Short4u:
The observations noted in the post we refer to really just show that on average, men are taller than women.
However, it does NOT show that a shorter-man to taller-women coupling is less affectionate (publicly or privately) since the occurrence is actually a very rare situation. It does not show that the “man being taller” is a driver (innate or media-driven.) However, the behaviour of the much shorter woman and the much taller man could indicate the trophy status of the much taller man (which is what most plaintiffs have noted here.)
Note that the relative frequency or infrequency of the much-shorter-than-average man within a couple can’t be determined with the data (since we would have to know the frequency of available much-shorter-than-average men and compare it to the relative ratio in the coupled sample.) As well, it requires a much larger sample size.
I’ve seen much the same as you. It’s a commendable quality that you possess such insight and empathy! Very few women cultivate such qualities anymore.
In the specific incidence of a tall woman and short man combo not being very affectionate, I’ve personally known such a combination. I am convinced that she felt that she sold herself short (rim shot!). Even though the guy she’s married to is a pillar of the community and respected by all, she COULD NOT overcome her reptilian programming and look at her man in a better light. Unlike other women in their large group, she never put much effort into her appearance and dress. That is an unforgivable display of disrespect to her husband, who deserved better!
Just speaking for myself, I have NO problem in being attracted to a taller woman. I DO have a problem if she cannot reject the peer pressure of others who would disapprove of us. The biggest problem with women, especially American women is that they are too well-adjusted to a profoundly dysfunctional society and reprobate culture. As long as women’s base impulses are endlessly catered to, they will continue to suffer and inflict greater suffering on their hapless male victims.
I’m a 5’10 woman married to a 5’7 husband. It has been very awkward at times. Yes at home we seem to work it out. In public it is not a normal relationship. We don’t go to concerts, sporting events, the mall, our children’s school etc. together. We eat out only if one of us arrived earlier, as to not be seen standing together. We used to go to family events, but after facing the ridicule we now only see our families on our own, never together. For the birth of our second child he only came to pick us up in the car. The nurse was hostile that he didn’t get out to open the door & stuff do I lied and said he was disabled. I even sat in a wheelchair, which is a trick of ours recently so we could sign some mortgage papers & register my son for kindergarten together. That is the stigma, it’s that bad! I don’t know that we’ll last, I know he must long for a normal relationship where he can walk hand in hand with a feminine woman, he must long to lean down and kiss a woman in public, he must long to be seen with a woman who doesn’t have to pretend to be crippled to go in public? It is heart breaking because I love him so although it’s hard to be ashamed of the person you are with!
That sounds like me I just lost my husband because he couldn’t understand the fact I’d always be bigger than him $ sadly he’d always be a fairy?
If this post is even for real, which seems enormously unlikely, you both need serious, long term, psychiatric help. The tragedy is that the two of you reproduced instead of getting away from each other.
After 4 years of online dating I found someone. Or at least I thought I did. We were in a relationship, during which time I deleted my profile. I didn’t work out, and as I reluctantly went to start again….I’m 5-3, and I thought about saying I was 5-4 or 5-5, just to see if it led to more responses. I didn’t. Come to find out, women are pissed off if a guy isn’t at least 5-8? If a 5-6 guy says he’s 5-8? I’m screwed.
On all dating websites, women just click the button that sets minimum height at 6’0″ and don’t care at all what they’ve done. 5’8″ is WAY below the limit! Even scavengers won’t go shorter than 5’10”. I’ve discovered that women who leave the height requirement open are just trolling for volume response. If by chance she lands some rich Napoleon, he’ll do until she bankrupts him.
@ Jim
Thank you very much, sir. Like you, I try my best to understand the issues and really do see how much it has affected some of our brothers. It is indeed, sad, that our society has allowed so many women to arrest their psychological maturity and in some cases revert back to some rather juvenile behaviour.
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@Everybody
To this point, I have reserved posts to mainly responses to some of the more hostile responses here. It is probably a good time to have a look at the key points this elevated revilement of shorter-than-average men.
___What fuels the prejudice?
The resentment for this “affliction” (haha, as if it were really some sort of disease) is nothing more than the projection of a poor self-image. We have shown that in reality, taller women in reasonable shape and of good character will have little issue with attracting the attention of suitable mates. The plethora of “tall women who have it bad too” responses are really just a way to __deflect__ from the body type that more often than not carries this irrational hatred for guys under 5-9 (or there abouts.) That body type would be that of being noticeably high in body fat ratio.
If you ever have witnessed a forum about the “hatred for shorter-than-average men”, nearly all the fanatics are high BMI women. The few remainders usually have a noticeable departure from the ideals of beauty (how “PC” was that?) These women will be extremely hostile and have a hair trigger for unleashing a firestorm of ad hominem as soon as they are challenged on their “beliefs.” The truth hurts and their response to that pain is to lash out at whom they see as unworthy of respect. Does that have every trademark of bigotry? It should. Since it really is the same modus operandi as racism, sexism or any prejudice: denigrate an already marginalized group in hopes to make yourself feel better.
Does that mean all women who are heightists are necessarily a combination of high BMI and less-than-beautiful? No, that isn’t being said. But you will rarely see in-shape or “beautiful women” having these issues (much less defend them with abject verbal violence.) This is mostly because they don’t have anything to be angry about in this regard. They can choose who they wish. They are not immune to media influence, and it could be shown that they have an affinity towards taller than average too. However, it’s not always the case, and again, they do not hold the kind of boiling bitterness towards shorter-than-average men.
___Why is it a big (or at least a bigger) deal online?
It’s because even the marginally attractive woman __doesn’t__ have to go online to attract the attention of suitable men. She only has to exist in public and men will be approaching her (Hopefully at least until she as the big rock on her finger.) This means the online venues are very much over-represented by those who cannot, for whatever reason, compete in the real world. These women feel they need to prove something to their sisters that they are “just as good” if not better. Hence they will hold out for the “ideal” trophy man.
___Why do you see the same women year-after-year on those dating sites?
Look at the rainbow they are chasing. Just like their gorgeous female counterparts, male models and rich fit 6-2 adventurer millionaires don’t have to go online to find women. They basically flock to the Ferraris and yachts, or are at the after work social functions frequently held at one of the rich crowd’s stately mansions. We haven’t even suggested which type of woman the millionaire is going to choose too. We’ll let every one ponder that one. Lol.
Furthermore, the online dating venue has one crucial component missing: that of __involuntary interaction__. Whether you like it or not, whether you are aware of it or not, in real world situations you can’t control who you mingle with at all times. This is especially so in the typical situation where people meet. When you’re at a party, people will come up and chat with you. You can’t easily “block” them. At work, you will interact with people. When you’re shopping or walking on the street, you may have to deal with people (even if it’s just to ask directions.) There are all sorts of contact happening. It’s part of the social experience.
Yet every one of these dating sites gives the user the ability to pick and choose with absolute precision the people they will experience a brief moment in life with. With this, online women retain the ability to pre-empt any chance for guys they see as “not good enough.” Ironically, this newfound power is the why they fail.
In their heck-bent pursuit of “off the cover of a romance novel and into my arms” they defeat the natural way that romance happens in the real world: You hang around people and without you knowing it, you are smitten. Subconsciously, the heightists are aware of this. They know that if they hung around people (even those pesky shorter guys) feelings can and will start to develop. Maybe it won’t be this particular guy or that particular guy, but it will happen __and__ it will not be based on the artificial “I can’t possible fall for a guy under 5-9”.
So they hold on for the dreamboat that never sails the online waters.
__So? Why bother? You won’t change these women’s way of acting?
That defiant declaration is seen often from those that promote intolerance for height. The truth is that awareness is the enemy of bigotry. They know this too and try to deflect, shame, shout down and generally discourage any discussion of this topic. Of course, no one really feels that a zealot will change their views even if they are aware that those views are based on falsehoods. If anything, they will become even more stubborn and agitated.
It is really they who suffer the most for having the prejudice: what a sad existence.
That doesn’t mean that the shorter-than-average guy is spared any negative impact, it just means that zealots are so unyielding in their hatred that they will ruin their own experience as collateral to their attempts at spiting their objects of disgust. Do heightists even know how badly profile statements like, “no shorties, I like my men tall” reflect on their personalities? I don’t know about everybody else but to me it sounds no different than, “I hate.”
The ___REAL WORLD___ is still the way to go for all guys. Out there, your “manly” qualities will shine (yes, every guy has them. Some have to do more work on them than others, but they are there) and heightists aren’t around since they are tethered to their laptops, cats, tv’s tuned to “The View”, refrigerators full of “comfort” at home: every single one of them self-aggrandizing and deluding about how attractive they really are and that they deserve to be absolute “picky.”
Until someone gets an online dating venue up that effectively discourages their brand of self-importance and entitlement to bullying, heightists are a large part of why cyber-dating is a monumental failure. Perhaps there should be a dating site, where “heightists” are segregated into a section all of their own. I’m pretty sure most guys wouldn’t bother visiting that section. The heightists still won’t get the message, but at least the rest of the dating world can mingle and meet without having to deal with all that latent anger and hostility. Sounds like a good business idea if you ask me. Any coders out there interested? (Must be at least 6ft tall though, because short coders generate pages upon pages of Napoleon Complex Variables… LOL just kidding.)
I am a man 5’7. I do not use dating sites. I do not date women.
I am hetrosexual. But only 5’7. My disposition on life as a beautiful, blonde long hair, always slighly tanned, blue eyed, exercise sometimes to excessive build, 5’7 man has utterly disgusted me with every female on the planet – the female hominid.
I also hate men. I look upon all the human race as cowardly followers, low IQ, children, given good grades in school, while genius children were failed, so that society would have drone workers, who wouldn’t mind getting up at 5 am and going to work for 60 years. Thats not an opinion, that is a fact.
Another fact of society is that tall men, and all women are spoiled by society. Another fact is that women and tall men very much would like all men under 6’1 were rounded up and burned in furnaces, like they did the Jews in Europe in the 30’s and 40’s. Another fact is that in 1985, The Ferigerator Perry was considered the largest player in the NFL, and today, close to 30 years later, the Fridge would be towered over by any player in the NFL.
Times have changed. I was born to a 42 year old, sickly woman suffering from genenic bone loss due to tuburculosis in her parents, and a father who stood 5’2, born as an american from a refugee from the irish patato famin in 1864. I was born in 1971, and was sent to private school, where I was nearly killed by the students in fist grade.
I was far more beautiful than the boy who smashed my head into a skating rink floor, or any of the other children, or their parents.On my disability pension, I get to see the world for what it is. You all would be angry to see me in person, I am far prettier than any man or wman on the planet, and I hate and fear you all.
People break in line in front of me, at the DMV, the liquor store, the meat shop at the grocery store, at the gas station, by men and women, some shorter , some taller, everyone. I am a misanthrope. I don’t like people.
I feel sorry for all of you, having to demean yourselves by submitting to an online dating site. My masturbation and imagination/pornography collection, means that my sex with myself is more fullfilling than having sex with any woman on the planet. I really truly do not need the women that want me shot for being under 6 ft tall.
I am an intellectual prodigy who sees the human race for what it is. My advice to you is to realize that all of human society are just intelectually retarted monkeys. You will probably never find someone you will like, only find someone you will settle for.
And you are on a dating site because something is wrong with you, and unlucky misfortune, which is a prominant part of the cosmic joke, this dimension and universe of non-sensical, incomplete mathmatics and physics. If there is an intelligence to the living organism, that is our universe, it is ‘unintelligent’, or is plagued by life, which would be a harmful parisite. Physical laws of our universe, and biological laws of life, death, fighting for breeding rights, rape, murder, wars, our appearing as a hairless ape, after apes already had fur, murder for eating by every organisim on the planet, females in nature always wanting the biggest male”s”, gold mining sites from 400k years ago, Puma Punku – everything you could ever know about our lives, nothing makes since. This means our reality does NOT MERIT IT BEING CONSIDERED REAL.
Scientifically, mathmatically, none of this is real, the 31k days you may live in this relm (around 91 years) has to be false….which raises the question, where the ‘hell’ are we…….Contemplate these things, rather than paying for a hooker on a website or Vegas.
Life isn’t what your parents prepared you for, unless you are a pretty girl, or a monsturously tall boy. There are deeper things to spend your 31k days on, scrap this ‘love’ idea, you wouldn’t want to fight all the other men, and go to jail just to keep your girlfriend, anyway.
I have to so say reading these comments kind of (very egotistically, I feel bad for it) makes me feel better about myself. I always wished I was a tall girl. I guess my height is averagish for a girl, 163, 54, but, interested in fashion as I am, i always desired to be closer to the tall, lean, kind of uncorporeal, shape of models. I always regarded elegance as more important than ‘hotness’. Maybe because I do some modelling (magazines, stock photos, etc, not runway, obviously) between acting jobs and the professional models I meet wear clothes in a way I never will.
That said, I don’t have any experience with internet dating, but I think the restrictions you guys are talking about, apply mostly to it. Maybe preferences exists in the real world as well, but they can be overcome. The hottest boyfriend I ever had was probably no taller than 57, shorter than average, I was slightly taller in heels and he was real, real pretty to anyone who met him. Nobody would have ‘restricted’ him, meeting him in real life. I guess you guys would have better luck with, how is it called?…normal dating.
But you also have to differenciate between discrimination and sexual/romantic attraction or preferences. Discrimination implies attaching some (dis)values to an attribute that has nothing to do with them. If someone were to tell you ‘I don’t want to date you because your shortness tells me you’re a weak person/insert random stupid thing, i woud see your point. But if they’re simply not attractd to it, yes, it is connected to society, the media and all, all standards of beauty are, but it is not discrimination, well, it is, but we all discriminate when applying our standards of attractiveness to choosing a partner. A romantic prospect reecting you because you’re short is not the same as an employer doing it. yes, you can’t change your height, people also can’t change facial features socially perceived as ugly. Would anyone not attracted to them be discriminating?
I’m 5’4 and my boyfriend is 5’6. No heels for me. I’ve always been attracted to big, tall, nice looking guys. The truth is though my boyfriend is kind, nice and patient. That overrides tall & hot any day of the week. You just need to find a girl who hasn’t been treated right who is ready for true love and your all set. My BF is insecure about his height and looks but I tell him his kindness, heart,and personality go REAL far!
To tall girls out there I feel for you, my cousin is tall & it’s been a real downer for her. I must say though another guy (5’8) dumped me in 9th grade to date a volleyball player girl who towered over him. It made me feel like ****! So point is you never know?
Someone for almost everyone?
Apollo!
Another well thought out reply of course. I’m getting ready for work, so mine won’t be as thorough, but I’ll try my best not to make too many grammatical errors.
First, I may have shot myself in the foot by using the term heightist. In my opinion it was a lighter term compared to racist or sexist, like shopaholic is to alcoholic. But since this term has a more serious meaning than I thought in this forum (I know, look at the subject, of course it would), I’ll be sure not to categorize myself so close to “Rosa Territory”.
What I meant by I used to be a “heightist”, again I use the term loosely, was that when it came to the check list that every girl/woman has, I previously always had a relatively tall height on my list. However, in real life, which is what we all live in whether we know it or not, I have been attracted to just as many short guys as tall ones. Height alone was never something that ruled out the possibility of dating a someone for me. If I find someone attractive, I find them attractive, and my checklist goes out the window. Attraction was not in spite of their height either, but because of the million other characteristics that got my senses going.
So, it’s not truly something that I’m recently getting over, the reality has been contrary to my checklist since before I had one. Which wasn’t too long ago I might add. I’m 25, and real men have only recently become a part of my social circle in the past couple of years. So for about a decade I wasn’t too pleased with the maturity of anyone in the male species regardless of height.
While I may have been attracted to them, a lot of the shorter guys weren’t exactly too thrilled with me. They were more into the skinny ones, of which I am not. I have been told it was because they wanted someone smaller than them, not just smaller, but half their size. Good luck finding that at 5’4″ and 130 lbs. I can’t blame them too much for it though, because in the reverse, I want someone bigger than me. However, it never seemed to be as big of an issue with taller guys. I believe it was because regardless of whether or not I was a size 2, I would always be smaller than them height-wise. Shorter guys will almost never use the term “little” when referring to me, but taller guys almost always will. Has to do with the the ratio of my size to theirs I guess, and the more inches they have compared to me, the smaller I seem to them.
This is why I needed so called “proof” that in their mid-late 20’s, this difference in thought between shorter and taller men had narrowed. Maybe my “aha moment” about shorter men was more about there being an existence of real gentlemen of any height. But because of my past experiences, I needed to see it more from shorter men. Just as you, I would assume based on your past experiences, would need more proof from black women that they weren’t so materialistic and focused on a man’s social status and million dollar income.
In response to your point of view on not dating black women…yes I do consider it a generalization. I’m nowhere near those women you’ve described. But I’m not exactly defending it because I’ve met quite a few of those ridiculous women myself. Strange how they want all of those impossible characteristics in a man, but all too often they themselves are unemployed, have more than one illegitimate child, and no life goals of their own, yet they deserve NBA players? Please.
I know that it’s this same generalization of black women along with the other assumptions that keep men from checking that box under desired ethnicity. But just as short men don’t want to prove that they are real men, why should I have to prove more than any other race that I’m not a gold digger? Neither of us should have to prove anything, but people can’t see the light unless it’s shown to them. Not all women aren’t created “Rosa” though, so I’m hoping even though come of the experiences of shorter men can be trying in the dating scene that we’re not all seen that way.
One last tidbit…in my small department of over 75 men, i’d say about 80% are by general standards short (5’1″-5’8″). They’re in different age ranges from 24-60, and from what I know, they seem to be doing quite well in the dating department. I’d say 98% of them are either married or dating someone. Not all of them are fit either, so the “don’t be short and fat” logic doesn’t apply here. In my world, shorter men don’t seem to have a disadvantage. I’ve got an idea, maybe you could all work with me :)
Hi Melzie, thanx for your reply.
Truthfully, being a black man under 5’8 has not been very rewarding to me in the dating department when the subject of dating my own race is the main topic of discussion. I’ve had enough bad experiences with black women, but you are right, it does not justify the generalization of them as a whole. I try my best not to carry negative experiences with me and take it out on the next woman because that is totally wrong. No woman regardless of how much interest in a man she has should bear the brunt of being mistreated, ignored or ridiculed by him because of a previous bad experience from another woman.
There are some beautiful, lovely, well-spoken, character driven black women that I would definitely try to get into her social circle. The point is that there are very few of these quality ladies and more phonies I’ve encountered in my life. By phony, this means the superficial, ignorant, arrogant, foul-mouthed, high-heeled, heightist types who complain to no end about the lack of good black men. They crap all over short men and even take pride in being extra insultive regardless of his race or background. Women like these shoot themselves in the foot over and over and over again because they choose to focus their attention on the tallest guy who plays them like a board game. This doesn’t mean there aren’t short guys who screw around on women too. Height has no correlation with infidelity. It must be said that tall guys who have women chasing after them are more likely to be dishonest and cheaters because they know the next woman is waiting in line.
This might sound bad but I’m actually glad that being a short guy means I can filter out all the women who aren’t worth my time. I don’t feel sorry for those brothas short or tall who’ve gotten themselves into trouble, impregnating more than one woman and can’t pay to raise the children they created, properly. I feel sorry for the kids in these situations because the mothers are no better an example. Another thing. If working out and staying in shape means I’m behaving superficially by virtue of attracting women, so be it. What I don’t do is discriminate against the women who aren’t as physically fit as me because it’s not like I have that much choice. I do prefer women to be somewhat diligent and mindful of proper diet and excercise but I don’t entirely hold it against them if they aren’t. I don’t go chatting up women who have attitude written all over her face with rolling eyes at my short stature.
Short men have never been the “IN” thing for women but we are gaining acceptance in this world. Just too slow for my likeness. Women subconsciously and genetically still apply prehistoric rules to the mate selection process. The tall guy who provides the image of protection, dominance and pseudo financial success wins out the majority of the time. He might be ultra-submissive, weak and the worst protector without a red cent in his pocket. It doesn’t matter to women because his height puts him at the top among the most desirable men. Furthermore, short guys who strive for excelence in life are often relegated to Napoleon status or Short-Man-Syndrome status. Lots of people still feel threatened, insulted or even embarrassed if a shorter person shows any kind of success.
Glad to know that you’re not a “Rosa” type. Sadly, women like her do exist. Their numbers aren’t small either.
@Juls
Juls says:
July 8, 2012 at 3:44 pm
But you also have to differenciate between discrimination and sexual/romantic attraction or preferences. Discrimination implies attaching some (dis)values to an attribute that has nothing to do with them. If someone were to tell you ‘I don’t want to date you because your shortness tells me you’re a weak person/insert random stupid thing, i woud see your point.
Response:
Well Juls, those two behaviours are far more equated that most people think.
First of all, let’s skip the euphemism of “preference.” The typical heightist is pretty clear in stating the height lower limit as a __REQUIREMENT__ (as in you MUST be this tall.) If it were merely a “preference,” in most cases there is doubt this blog would even exist (much less garner this much dialogue.)
Secondly, look at the typical excuses that a heightist hides behind: “Shorter guys have a predilection for a Napoleon Complex”, “Shorter guys can’t protect me as well as taller guys (or essentially cannot offer any reasonable protection)”, “I need to feel wrapped up in big strong arms”, “I feel like a giant”, “I like heels”. All of these are a combination of mythology and implies “attaching some (dis)values” to an attribute that has nothing to do with the shorter man. Is that not your very definition of “discrimination?”
Juls says:
July 8, 2012 at 3:44 pm
But if they’re simply not attractd to it, yes, it is connected to society, the media and all, all standards of beauty are, but it is not discrimination, well, it is, but we all discriminate when applying our standards of attractiveness to choosing a partner.
Response:
You can see that it __IS__ discrimination. So, you can see the point.
The difference here is something that many have touched upon. Applying criteria on attributes that are a product of someone’s choice (or mutable) is far different from applying criteria on attributes that are not a person’s choice (and immutable.) Also, should that attribute have really nothing to do with what that person can directly achieve in life (even under the challenge of social discrimination) is that value judgement in the same sensibility as that of say, being adverse to an entire-back covering tattoo of Bozo the clown?
Consider again, that saying “we all do it” is applying the “To Quoque” Fallacy (Two wrongs make a right.) The level at which height discrimination happens, the lack of realistic mitigation and the indignant defence of it are unparalleled.
Juls says:
July 8, 2012 at 3:44 pm
A romantic prospect reecting you because you’re short is not the same as an employer doing it.
Response:
Ah yes. People often think that they “have the answer” when they introduce the employment simile. You may not realize it, but it only looks that way because of an inaccurate comparison. As in algebra, we have to apply the transformation to __BOTH__ sides of an equation to make a fair assessment.
People think that because the consequences of systemic discrimination in the workplace have more dire consequences (unless we DO believe that one can die of a broken heart) that barring shorter men from being considered is not a big deal. However, consider a society where people of an undesired ethnicity (or gender) are generally not considered for higher paying or more prestigious positions simply because those in control think they look unattractive in those positions. No biggie, they can still take the minimum wage jobs or welfare, no one dies from those. Their life will relatively “suck”, but hey who told them to be of the undesired ethnicity or gender? Besides they all have Napoleon Complexes.
Now. How is that scenario any different?
Juls says:
July 8, 2012 at 3:44 pm
yes, you can’t change your height, people also can’t change facial features socially perceived as ugly. Would anyone not attracted to them be discriminating?
Response:
Well, they are discriminating, but even attractive women overlook “butt ugly” if there are other attributes. You do NOT see a clear “must be prettier than a collision between a truck full of -dogs playing poker- velvet paintings and an AMC Pacer” on a notable number of online dating profiles. If you do, then you might have a point. The ugly man will still get a chance. The shorter man is barred. That’s the difference.
So the point there is not that they are both discrimination, but how no other discrimination has a similar pervasiveness accompanied by haughty defence in the online world of dating: Certainly not big noses, nor girlish arms, nor notably asymmetrical facial features. These are likely just as infrequent as the 95 percentile lower height but you don’t see mention of “must have reasonable sized nose, hehe that’s just me, I like to wear heels.”
@FEET
I think that what turns a preference into a requirement is the structure of online dating, which I’m not at all familiar with, but this blog cracks me up. I believe tho’ that translating your standards into written form can easily make them into requirement, you have to put down in words things that are generally very untellegible to our conscious side. And making nor butt-ugly into a requirement would just be stupid, as that is subjective a none thinks of themselves as such.
So they go to quantitative standards, rather than qualitative, those than are clear cut. No short men/no fat women. And yes one of those things can pontially be changed, but we’re talking about attracion here, something you find unattractive in your belly not being the person’s fault is not going to make you wanna shag them any more. I don’t believe those women were saying they don’t think a shorter man can’t – actually – protect them because is weaker, there’s no tigers around anymore, they were just saying that thay like feeling hugged completely, surrounded, as in a cacoon, I get that, it is what they go for. They also go for pretty, or not horrifying at least, as well all do, but there’s no way to write that down as a quantitative requirement, ugly people will just get rejected a step later in the process, but the point is the same.
I didn’t make the comparison with employment because I belIeve romantic rejection hurts less, but because it is illegal/ immoral to discriminate on looks in the hiring procss, while it is normal and welcome (who would want to be with someone that finds them sexually. unappealing) in dating.
I find certain type generally, as in, very very often, sexually unattrative : thse types include some races at times, so blond and pale that he’s borderline albino to very dark African American, that’s because I like contrast of colours and shaps in people, to me, that’s what makes them beautiful. I don’t feel I’m a racist bcause of it. Because I don’t attach any attributes to those people aside from being unattractive to me for their looks, which I’m entitled to want in a relationship.
I’m 5’4”, I wish I was taller but I’ve learnt to deal with, if a guy were to reject me because he only likes tall girls, I’d get it, if his rasons were ‘because of your height you don’t seem like an indipendent girl, he’d be prejudiced. here’s the difference, all here.
@Juls
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
I think that what turns a preference into a requirement is the structure of online dating, which I’m not at all familiar with, but this blog cracks me up. I believe tho’ that translating your standards into written form can easily make them into requirement, you have to put down in words things that are generally very untellegible to our conscious side.
Response:
There are two things you are talking about here.
First, we will cover the qualitative statement of one’s desires, or this “translating your standards” as you say. Whether you have to write it down or say it in person, they are still the very same thoughts. If anything, the written form will have more opportunity for review and re-editing than say, a direct oral interview.
However, it is rather odd to think that only upon the necessity to have one’s standards in black and white does an affinity that somehow lurks in a haze in our subconscious transform into a loathing that is defined with precision. It would be as if all men who didn’t “prefer” higher BMI in potential mates suddenly all coalesced on “must be less than BMI index of 25.5” when they have to write it down.
Incidentally, to say heightists equate lack-of-height to “unattractiveness” is just a circular argument (as in “it’s neither here nor there”.)
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
And making nor butt-ugly into a requirement would just be stupid, as that is subjective a none thinks of themselves as such. So they go to quantitative standards, rather than qualitative, those than are clear cut. No short men/no fat women.
Response:
No. Whether or not something is measured in universally constant discrete increments neither amplifies nor clarifies the existence of an underlying prejudice to the beholder. The “restriction” based on a comparison to an average was always there for the heightist. It is presented as a qualitative standard because the online venues offer that precision for body length. But that presentation does not drive the prejudice. As far as defining something that has no intentionally recognized set or measures (What? I can rate people by Micro-Fuglies?), defining butt-ugly clearly in less than 100 words is a difficult task, however, the generally required photographic evidence is not.
Fuglies don’t think they are fugly? Shorter-than-average men, or even really shorter-than-average men do not think of themselves as being “Too Short” for the task either.
Yes. The “structure” allows the precision. In that regard, which online site has these “requirements”:
__1 Body Weight and BMI must be clearly stated in increments of Lbs (or Kg) and BMI Index.
__2 Every profile must be accompanied by a clear full body length photo in a skin tight leotard (or equivalent shape hugging outfit.
Those are essentially “quantitative”, but curiously what you see is “please state your weight as of these fuzzy self-appraised qualitative values”: Thin, Average, Athletic, A Few Extra Pounds, Rather not Say. Not only are these vague, they are completely the opinion of the member (and not of the observer.) Come to think of it, why don’t these same sites offer the same system of personal opinion latitudes for men’s heights: “A few less Inches”, “Average”, “Average more or less”, “A few more inches”.
Many things that are essentially “qualitative” and very subject to opinion are clearly written as requirements in online profiles. “No players”, “No dishonest men”, “No one looking for a booty call”. These are all very open to interpretation, yet they appear as clearly and as often as “must be 6 ft or above.” Hence, the notion that the existence of a ubiquitous standard of measurement converts a mere affinity into a hard line requirement is __UNSUPPORTED__.
Incidentally, grouping an innate, innocuous and immutable trait (shorter-than-average height) together with a self-inflicted, health challenging and alterable one is, at best, insulting. In general, it is quite offensive. It is like saying being of a certain ethnicity is no different than being a substance abuser as far as membership to a club. No this ethnicity or drug addicts allowed. Same thing. Can you seriously not see how offensive that is?
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
And yes one of those things can pontially be changed, but we’re talking about attracion here, something you find unattractive in your belly not being the person’s fault is not going to make you wanna shag them any more.
Response:
Again, labelling it as an attraction is still just a circular argument. The reasons why the “attraction” is often really just compensation for a lowered self-image have been covered. Furthermore, it’s not the “attraction” that is the issue. It’s the abject aversion to shorter-than-average that is the concern. Some one who likes red meat can be very attracted to prime rib but there’s something odd if they refuse to be SEEN eating anything else.
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
I don’t believe those women were saying they don’t think a shorter man can’t – actually – protect them because is weaker, there’s no tigers around anymore, they were just saying that thay like feeling hugged completely, surrounded, as in a cacoon, I get that, it is what they go for.
Response:
Well, with all due respect, you actually __DON’T__ get it.
Firstly, you assume that a reason (even if heightist’s didn’t say it) is because a shorter man is “weaker.” That is not a good assumption to make. Most of the difference in adult height is in the limbs (as in longer legs.) The torso of a typical 5-9 man is not much less massive than that of a 6-1 man. That also means that being “surrounded” in a hug wouldn’t be much different. Besides, if that were the case, you would figure that “having to write it down” would lend more clarity, and women would be saying, “must have big strong arms” to hug me. Most guys can go work out to get those. Gyms don’t discriminate membership on height.
Secondly, if you think that strength is what protected early man from all sorts of Pleistocene predators, we wouldn’t be having this conversation (since we’d all have been served up as sabre-tooth cat buffet many millennia ago.) Even the most physically powerful man would be no match for Smilodon or a short-faced bear. Man survived on cunning, teamwork and the ability to wield weaponry. Who would the top man be? You guessed it. The guy with the best combination of those skills: The alpha male. Strength and height didn’t make you the Alpha male either. It was still the winning mix of athleticism and smarts that got you to the top. Only women fooled into believing what the media sells them today, and the old-boys club of corporations, think that the tall guy is the alpha.
On protection: You would figure that most sentient people would quickly figure out that it’s the perception of the potential assailant that is of the greatest importance to “protection.” I have doubts that the guy with the knife or club is going to think, “oh, that guy is 6 feet tall, I better not mess with him. I’ll go for that 5-8 guy”. Don’t kid yourself, the guy that wants to do you harm knows who can handle himself and who cannot. It has nothing to do with height. In combat, barring positioning, the element of surprise, superior weaponry and numbers, the things of importance are experience, speed, resilience, strength, and then size (not height, but size.) Experience is Numero Uno by far.
Of course, the game-changers are the first four (positioning, element of surprise, superior weaponry and numbers.) That is why the alpha male is the always the man since he’s the guy with the smarts to keep you out of those situations in the first place.
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
They also go for pretty, or not horrifying at least, as well all do, but there’s no way to write that down as a quantitative requirement, ugly people will just get rejected a step later in the process, but the point is the same.
Response:
That still offers the ugly guy a chance, while the shorter guy is not even allowed to compete. Again, you can’t “write down” ugly but what do we think a photograph is for? Even then, very few men are ugly to the point of revulsion. If they are in reasonable shape and well-groomed, they will generally be presentable (unless they are that awful, awful, 5-8 or less of course. Lol.) Try winning a race when you aren’t allowed to compete. It’s __NOT__ the same.
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
I didn’t make the comparison with employment because I belIeve romantic rejection hurts less, but because it is illegal/ immoral to discriminate on looks in the hiring procss, while it is normal and welcome (who would want to be with someone that finds them sexually. unappealing) in dating.
Response:
Really, now?
It may be illegal and immoral, but discrimination still happens within the normalcy of day-to-day business. Functionally, all businesses reserve the right to not enter an employment contract based on nothing but a whim. It may be obvious to an observer that the decision may have been based on some form of discrimination, but as long as businesses can stick to “my right to not be attracted” (and they do) it is no different than what we are discussing here.
Again, the comparison __MUST__ carry the same transformation on each side of the equation. Because there isn’t a law against how maturely one decides on a mate, doesn’t make the practice any less discriminatory. There wasn’t a law against child labour a century ago in many societies (probably still don’t exist in some today.) Does that make it all right to do so? After all, it wasn’t against the law and it the level of hurt isn’t the issue.
“I can’t consider a 5-7 guy because he makes me feel like a giant” carries as little morality as “I can’t hire that ethnicity, because it makes my sales team look bad.” Obscuring the reasons with “I just am not (sexually/business functionally) attracted doesn’t hide the fact that the decision is based on irrational prejudice. If you want to bring in morality, then the employment and dating issue are one and the same.
Normal and accepted? It may seem normal to heightists who post online ads, but the existence of this blog alone is proof that it isn’t very welcome. Bigotry is rarely welcome. Besides, not giving women the right to vote was pretty normal about 100 years ago. Should we have stayed that course because it was “normal and accepted”? Hey, why should we even let them online to respond to blogs? The notion that they were not as smart as men was prevalent in many cultures of the past (heck, it still happens today in some backward places around the world.)
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
I find certain type generally, as in, very very often, sexually unattrative : thse types include some races at times, so blond and pale that he’s borderline albino to very dark African American, that’s because I like contrast of colours and shaps in people, to me, that’s what makes them beautiful. I don’t feel I’m a racist bcause of it. Because I don’t attach any attributes to those people aside from being unattractive to me for their looks, which I’m entitled to want in a relationship.
Response:
Lol. It always comes back to propping up that “I’m entitled to like what I want” straw man and beating it.
The fact is that __NO ONE__ is trying to bar you from the ability to choose whatever you like (if anything, that is what heightists do when they restrict shorter-than-average men from competition.) However, what heightists and their supporters don’t like is when the reasons for their “choice” are publicly shown to be suspect. Its similar to claiming that this blog is a real crack-up, but then proceeding to take an increasingly indignant stance which betrays much less resultant levity.
As far as the hate for lack of height, when all the cute little excuses are shown to be fallacious the first retreat is back to this. Again. No one is trying to strip away your freedom of choice. However, it is the reasons (and the absurdity of rationalizations masquerading as reasons) that are being discussed. Freedom of choice is still entirely intact.
“Don’t attach any attributes”. Well, it should be quite clear from reading this blog that heightists attach all sorts of conjured attributes to give seemingly valid reason to their prejudice.
A difference too is in how often the height of the beholder has little to do with the “requirement” for the candidate. A heightist’s own height is not part of the equation most of the time (even when they pretend it is). They all seem to want 6-ft. The difference could be 10 inches, but they all want 6-ft. It’s all about looking better to their peers. It’s all about how it looks on them (like a dress) in front of their peers.
It isn’t paralleled in the xenophobic tendencies you speak of. That is all about how the subject looks to you, and not how it would look to other people should you be coupled (which is really the case with heightism.)
Furthermore, the broad spectrum of skin tones will have an equally broad spectrum of affinity. This is __NOT__ so with height intolerance online. As I have mentioned in a previous post, it’s not as noticeable outside of online since the online world is over-represented by women who have been out-competed in the real world. The online heightist needs to PROVE something to their peers. This is why they will hold out for nothing shy of a media-approved TROPHY. Anyone who falls “short” of that trophy is summarily ignored. It’s all about showing off that “You have won a prize”. It’s really a retreat to a juvenile behaviour (it’s like junior high all over again.)
Juls says:
July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am
I’m 5’4”, I wish I was taller but I’ve learnt to deal with, if a guy were to reject me because he only likes tall girls, I’d get it, if his rasons were ‘because of your height you don’t seem like an indipendent girl, he’d be prejudiced. here’s the difference, all here.
Response:
First off, a woman’s height is not a big deal to most (if not all) men. Secondly, at 5-4 you are well within the range of the mainstream of height for an adult woman in Western society. Based on that, it is doubtful that one has really felt what being on the receiving end of intolerance is really like. It is also doubtful that many shorter-than-average men wish they were taller. Just as most people of a marginalized ethnicity don’t wish to be the preferred local ethnicity, they just wished people were more informed. Can you see that heightists tend to project their insecurities on others?
Faulty rationale presented to euphemize a prejudice does not remove the tort. Ignorance (as in denial) may lessen the effect, but the tort still exists.
The difference?
The __APPLICABLE__ difference is in the lack of freedom to present your case (and in dating that would be the your belief that you are a suitable candidate.) If you don’t believe that is the issue, consider this: What if you, for no other reason except that you are a women, were not allowed to respond a post. Does it make it any better if it was said that the gatekeeper just didn’t find your response “attractive enough”?
Yet you are compelled to respond. You had to try and place some credibility to your claims. Is that not all that is asked by the shorter-tha-average guy?
How does it feel to not have the chance to argue against the predetermination that your argument is unworthy? Wait. You can’t answer that. You don’t pass the “requirement”, err, I mean “preference.”
THAT is the difference.
I think I screwed up my PC settings. I can’t log a response anymore :P
The truth is yes short men may be blocked right away. Other’s are blocked at the second step, where they have to meet. I would rather be blocked right off the bat. In that way short men are lucky. It is simple if someone doesn’t like short guys, it is known straight up. Women face having to be rejected in person. They are rejected during the first meeting for a myriad of physical preferences. It hurts in person even worse! I’m tall and I have met men who have said “You’d be perfect/ pretty/ hot IF you were shorter/not so tall/ smaller”. I wish they had realized I was tall and restricted me in the first place. Oh and I always say my real height, I guess men forget to check because tall women are rare.
As I mentioned before, a woman’s height doesn’t make any difference to me. Only her vulnerability to peer pressure because I may be even in height or short in comparison. I’m sure the brethren in this thread know full well how important peer pressure is to a woman with respect to who she’s going out with.
You don’t stand a chance in hell if you’re shorter or even only an inch or two taller than she is. If her friends approve, you’re safe. The best situation is if her friends are JEALOUS of her because of you! But, that’s only for the lucky 1%.
@everybody
At any rate, the rate and magnitude of discrimination against shorter-than-average men with respects to online dating far exceeds that against taller-than-average women. Practically every man on this thread has, when so asked, stated that they have no issues with dating a taller or even taller-than-average woman. You don’t hear about a lot of guys outside of this thread rejecting women for being taller than averager either. Hence the reasons why these taller-than-average women are being rejected are unlikely to be that of height.
When actions contradict declaration of intent, at least one is not true.
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Specfic answers:
@Lynette
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
The truth is yes short men may be blocked right away. Other’s are blocked at the second step, where they have to meet.
Response:
Sure. But this is just an obfuscation as it ignores the observation that a restriction means that very few, if any, shorter-than-average men make it to the second step of an actual meeting.
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
I would rather be blocked right off the bat. In that way short men are lucky. It is simple if someone doesn’t like short guys, it is known straight up.
Response:
Your actions reveal quite the opposite of your claim here.
Why?
This is because you admit that you feel men are adverse to taller-than-average women, yet you will not increase the opportunity to be “blocked right off the bat” by getting confirmation that these men are aware of your height.
If you are saying that it’s not an online solicitation, and instead just a direct chance meeting in person, it too is facetious. In this case, you are ignoring that fact that getting rejected for your height would be no different than a shorter-than-average guy in the same situation.
It’s been pointed out time and time again that women are far more rarely rejected for being “too tall”. Of course, what it could actually betray is that one is being rejected for __OTHER__ reasons, and is in denial of it, or this claim is not truthful in the least.
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
Women face having to be rejected in person.
Response:
Are you implying that men are not rejected in person too? (Because that would be false.) Again, in the case of shorter men, they probably get rejected far more often than a taller-than-average woman. Practically every guy on this thread has said that they have no problem with taller and taller-than-average women. On the other hand, you have many a “Rosa” in the opposite direction. You even have a curious number of “taller-than-average” women ignoring the clear indication that their plight is in nowhere the same level of intensity or frequency as the plight of the shorter-than-average man, yet continue make the comparison as if it was the same.
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
They are rejected during the first meeting for a myriad of physical preferences.
Response:
Yet, few if any of these here-to-unknown physical “preferences” do not appear as “restrictions” in the online ad. You lose 100% of the contests you can’t enter. Furthermore, which of the “myriad of physical preferences” are innate and immutable, and cannot be immediately detected? Are we going to hear the myths of “Barbie Doll”, “Big Bxxbs” and “Blond” again?
Note that physically speaking, a full-length recent body shot photograph will reveal a lot of information before that “first meeting.” Sure one can claim that the man “didn’t read the height”, but we’ll cover that again in a moment.
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
It hurts in person even worse!
Response:
That is neither here nor there. Whether someone experiences discrimination online or in person, it would be the same. However, if one fails because of a physical trait that they are responsible for, or can voluntarily change, it is wholly different from the subject of this thread.
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
I’m tall and I have met men who have said “You’d be perfect/ pretty/ hot IF you were shorter/not so tall/ smaller”.
Response:
This is a combination of two things. The first thing is that the observer is __NOT TRUTHFUL__l in revealing the reasons why they are rejecting the subject. The second is that the observer is __NOT BEING TRUTHFUL__ to him/herself as to the real reasons for the rejection (unlike a shorter-than-average guy encountering a restriction as they know the reason).
Again, ALL of the responses here from men indicate that few if any men have issues with a woman being taller. The online situation also does not reflect your claims either. They may for “BBW” but not for “taller than average” women regardless of how many times people speciously claim it to be so.
Lynette says:
July 16, 2012 at 2:17 am
I wish they had realized I was tall and restricted me in the first place. Oh and I always say my real height, I guess men forget to check because tall women are rare.
Response:
Well, this probably speaks more to the second point just noted (the one about being truthful to oneself.)
If a guy was that sensitive to the height of a woman, it would stand to reason that he would be very active in seeking out the height before agreeing to a meeting. Even if the particular value of the trait was rare (in this case notably “taller than average”), if emphasis is there, than it is very unlikely they would not have sought out that information first. To think otherwise is really in the territory of denial of other aspects of one’s persona and physical being.
Since few guys are adverse to taller-than-average women (literally to a man here on this thread), it is unlikely that men are rejecting you for your relative height. Although your experience is yours, it is doubtful that these rejections are for the verbatim reasons.
= = = = =
@everybody
At any rate, the rate and magnitude of discrimination against shorter-than-average men with respects to online dating far exceeds that against taller-than-average women. Practically every man on this thread has, when so asked, stated that they have no issues with dating a taller or even taller-than-average woman. You don’t hear about a lot of guys outside of this thread rejecting women for being taller than averager either. Hence the reasons why these taller-than-average women are being rejected are unlikely to be that of height.
When actions contradict declaration of intent, at least one is not true.
See, Feet, what I think we mainly disagree about is the role of attraction and how it should be dealt with.
As I see it, the average of what is found attractive in given time and place in history is a complex mixture of so many things, from the media to biology, that are too long to list and too intricate to analyse. But attraction is certainly discriminatory in terms and linked to other types of discrimination. It can be critiqued, sure, but surely not regulated.
Everyone has preferences, even those ugly requirements, even you. The fact that the characteristic you carry is a requirement for more people, it is sad for you, but not necessarely a reflection on those people, I don’t think being selective and making the pool of people you interact with more lickley to be attractive for you makes you a bad person. If you do that,not because of an actual preference, aestethic ideal or whatever, but bcause you want to be seen on the street with someone your friends will applaude, well, you’re simply sad, and probably 15.
Your comparison with blog responses doesn’t sound appropriate to me. That’s an open space of many people, that implicitly welcomes everyone, (more similar to not being let into a club because of your height/weight/attire/pink hair)
You’re talking about a two people scenario here, where someone sets standards on whom they want to interact with on a romantic level. The right comparison would be someone blocking me from pming them because I’m X(a woman or whatever characteristic of mine) and the only reason they’re on the blog is for romance. And they don’t want to shag X, statistically in their life the hardly found X attractive, maybe a few times they did, but it wouldn’t be functional for them to go through all the Xs because they could eventually find that oneinamillion they fancy. It would be the nice thing to do to give absolutely everyone a chance to be in the ‘race’, but they should make online dating their profession for that to have a chance to work.
There is a difference between public and private life, employment and romance, you can’t legislate people’s mating choices.
And discriminating on a changeble trait doesn’t make the act any better, saying ‘well, at least they can change that’ implyies that everyone should try and mold themselves into society standards of beauty in order to have higher chances at dating. Where does it end? at this point any physical characteristic is virtually modifiable if you go to enough extremes.
I agree, there seems to a be a discrimination, beyond dating, towards short men, among many other groups, and it is good to bring attention to it, it is they only wat to change things, but I think dating should be the least of your arenas, as it is an extremely personal choice, mostly coming from the belly, not the head.
I empathise with the situation, it sucks, but there’s no bad guy here. Ok, maybe the aforementioned 15 yo, but that would be like gettingmad at the baby beacause it’s pissing in the diaper.
See though tall women are rare so men are not on the “lookout”for us. When we come up that’s when we freak guys out. No guys probably “exclude” girls with anything rare because they are not thinking of randomness. I mean I know some men wouldn’t like a dwarf but that’s not excluded either (I think men secretly like dwarves though so its not a fair comparison). The men on this don’t get that in real life their not that excluded. In real life tall women are. See…
Feet Still Touching the Ground and My Head Up My A $ $,” you claim: “Practically every man on this thread has, when so asked, stated that they have no issues with dating a taller or even taller-than-average woman. You don’t hear about a lot of guys outside of this thread rejecting women for being taller than averager either ” Spanky, that’s pretty weak
$ H l t, you’re throwing out there. You aren’t seriously trying to pass off the handful of vertically challenged males who have commented here, or your unsubstantiated claim of off site comments as a representitive population of the cohort group. I keep saying it, and i’ll say it again. Just because your mother tells you how bright you are, don’t make it so, you are a frickin’ idiot.
Instead of spending all your time commenting on every post on this site in anal expulsive detail, as you do. Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor, put the effort into personal development. Being a troll with a Napoleon Complex is unbecoming.
By the way, do you happen to know who Robert Reich is by any chance? The man is 4’11” tall. He’s married with two children, worked in the administrations of three Presidents, and along with that, he is a world renowed author and expert on economic policy. Wait I’m not done yet, Bevis…he is also the Chanselor’s Professor of Public Policy at UC Berkeley. The man is 4′-11″ and he’s a GIANT. So stop whining like a child and making nonsense up in that pea sized brain of yours. You can’t change a woman’s height preference in mens anymore than you can change someones preference for liking chocolate icecream over
vanila cecream. Grow the frick up…oh yeah…LOL…(yawn)…NEXT!
@Everybody:
The return to trying to silence those one cannot debate via personal attack was quite predictable. Once the civil approach by one avatar was shown to contain some serious flaws in its arguments (to the point that one was now immediately contradicting oneself within the same paragraph) the name-calling campaign was expected to resume.
Though the post is attached here. Massimo88’s was responding to a “Feet” post just a day ago. Dates may appear differently, but this text can be used to find it on this page:
“When rebuttals become more and more filled with deflection, disambiguation and hyperbole, it is clear that there is little substance. Even convincing oneself increasingly becomes an exercise of evasion rather than enlightenment.”
Also, as usual, what few counterpoints Massimo88 has attempted here, are easily dispelled.
@Massimo88
Lol. This is about as predictable and weak as it gets. What new avatar will you use next to try and seem dedicated to respectful discussion (while using this one in the same old unsuccessful attempt to silence those you cannot debate)? We are all waiting for your Anne-swer.
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In Detail:
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massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
Feet Still Touching the Ground and My Head Up My A $ $,” you claim: “Practically every man on this thread has, when so asked, stated that they have no issues with dating a taller or even taller-than-average woman. You don’t hear about a lot of guys outside of this thread rejecting women for being taller than averager either ” Spanky, that’s pretty weak $ H l t, you’re throwing out there.
____Answer__
ROFL (I mean “LOL”). That’s about as “weak” as it gets as retort (not even including having to lace every response with the same old childish name-calling).
This falls into the category of “perspective”. We also don’t hear about guys rejecting:
__1. Bonier elbows than average
__2. Eyes closer together than average
__3. Lips not as naturally full as average
__4. Some other random measure
Why? Because, although any given irrationally inequitable treatment may exist:
__1. This thread is specifically about women restricting men who are shorter-than-average
__2. These things, like men rejecting taller-than-average women, do not exhibit the intensity and frequency of the prejudice this thread is based on.
__BOTH__ these points have been carefully explained to all numerous times. If you actually accepted the truth instead of attacking those who present it, it may actually reduce the latent anger that you clearly exhibit.
Simply calling a point “weak” in an attempt to parrot a criticism isn’t enough. You actually have to have a valid point.
= = = = =
massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
You aren’t seriously trying to pass off the handful of vertically challenged males who have commented here, or your unsubstantiated claim of off site comments as a representitive population of the cohort group. I keep saying it, and i’ll say it again. Just because your mother tells you how bright you are, don’t make it so, you are a frickin’ idiot.
____Answer__
Whether your opposition is generally cognitively gifted or not isn’t relevant (nor is whether or not his or her mother consistently and regularly reminds one of it). In fact, it would do your own reputation even more harm should your opposition truly be as intellectually challenged as you so frequently suggest. (Though you’re doing a fine job without this)
We are, after all, exploring the __prejudice__.
In that regard, the thread does not bias the population of shorter-than-average men as those successfully mated and those not so will have both gone through the same challenges. As such, those successfully mated will be no less aware of the path they have walked (We will call upon, Robert Reich briefly to provide support on this.)
While individual mitigation of the inequity will vary, the bias still exists. As such, the anecdotes here do represent the effects of the prejudice. It is good that this was brought up. You may choose to still ignore this reasoning, but others are now enlightened.
What’s even better is that hostility and immaturity in opposition supports the case that the prejudice is driven by low self-esteem. Please continue. It makes the case easier to prove as well as provides many with hours of entertainment (albeit voluntarily at your expense).
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massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
Instead of spending all your time commenting on every post on this site in anal expulsive detail, as you do. Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor, put the effort into personal development. Being a troll with a Napoleon Complex is unbecoming.
____Answer__
Although some do feel the world is rife with agitated dullards, most are certain you do not personally speak for the masses. It could well be that a good amount of the population are in denial, but still not enough for one to speak for all.
You have been asked (and respectfully too) to provide some rebuttal to the criticisms of your suppositions. To that you have only resorted to sidestepping the request and dedicating your ramblings to ad hominem attack. Incidentally, the excuse of “I’m not going through it point-by-point” is hardly camouflaging the inability to counter even a single criticism.
As far as personal development, are you suggesting others take your lead in child-like name-calling, repeating fallacy, badgering those you cannot debate and other such “mature” behaviours? Many will likely agree that a course in personal development may better serve you more than anyone else on this thread. Those courses are likely offered in French too (albeit modern French and not that of the early 1700’s).
= = = = =
massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
By the way, do you happen to know who Robert Reich is by any chance? The man is 4’11″ tall. He’s married with two children, worked in the administrations of three Presidents, and along with that, he is a world renowed author and expert on economic policy. Wait I’m not done yet, Bevis…he is also the Chanselor’s Professor of Public Policy at UC Berkeley. The man is 4′-11″ and he’s a GIANT.
____Answer__
Do you mean, former Secretary of Labour Robert Reich? The Robert Reich who wrote,
“With rare exceptions, senators are always tall and big shouldered. Heightism is rampant in American politics. I’m tempted to stand on my chair, but that would be uncabinetlike. I have to remain content to hear the oath and watch the backs of senatorial necks.”
Reich, Robert, B. (1997). Locked in the Cabinet. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, p. 44.
Because Robert Reich is successful in his career and in his personal life does not remove the existence of the irrational bias. In fact, as the excerpt from him shows, he is as aware of it as anyone is.
I’m sure we can find many examples of shorter-than-average men who are successful in both regards. No one, not even those who have been brave enough to state their personal experiences here, will deny that.
But the fallacy is in thinking that if there are those who overcome adversity that the adversity doesn’t exist or is functionally insignificant. If that were so, the existence of Obama as president would mean that no ethnic bias exists such that those in the non-preferred group have significant challenges. (That isn’t true, by the way.)
It is likely that a portion of people from Nation X would be financially well off even if the government decided to charge then 5% more in taxes just because they are from Nation X. Does that mean the “Nation X tax” is valid, or non-existent to the point of ignorance? Please.
(Don’t forget to denigrate Robert Reich for documenting heightism. Make sure you baselessly accuse him of whining and making things up too. Lol.)
= = = = =
massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
So stop whining like a child and making nonsense up in that pea sized brain of yours.
____Answer__
Odd. Most of what I have presented here has been backed up with references that link back to a plethora of independent material that can be easily validated. In absolute contrast, you began your presence, here (at least as Massimo88) with a false conclusion based on a purposeful misrepresentation of scientific research (Yes. You did, and this is recorded in this thread.)
So, just __WHO__ is “making things up”. LOL.
Speaking of “making things up”…
“Whining”.
Really. In order to do that, wouldn’t one have to have some personal injury to “whine” about? My posts have been entirely on demonstrating how heightism is a prejudice, and, to dispel the usual false logic and grade-school tactics used to defend it. Not only have I not lamented on any personal damages, I have not used any personal trial as a benchmark (or even referenced my relative height, business and personal success). Your accusation of “whining” is wholly unsupported.
Interestingly, it is usually heightists (let’s see… AN-drea, AN-dromeda, AN-simmo who else used “Dude” to address their opposition…AN…), or, at times, heightists masquerading as shorter-than-average men, who attempt to “shame” critics of heightism by calling them “whiners”. It is way to exact a penalty for speaking up.
Sorry, that doesn’t work. If anything it just provides evidence that Massimo88, 89 and now “90” are all connected. (By the way, there is no need to “prove” this to the satisfaction of you or a court of law. There only needs to be proof enough for the audience at large to entertain the same thought. “Lol”)
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massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
You can’t change a woman’s height preference in mens anymore than you can change someones preference for liking chocolate icecream over vanila cecream.
____Answer__
Lol. The usual straw man argument of “you can’t change my mind”.
Zealots (and their sycophants) are always quick to think that any criticism of their particular flavour of prejudice is all about “changing their minds”.
As it has been stated before, NONE of this is about changing the mind of the current diehard. Rather, it’s all about exposing the prejudice, and the ugliness that it really is. Why do you think there is so much anger instead of valid debate in opposition? That anger is because zealots fully realize this truth, but do not want anyone to discuss it (even amongst themselves).
If one really DIDN’T want to see this “whining”, you’d think they would just not read it. If they felt it was not logically supported, they would offer some valid rebuttal. When all you see (and really, from some that is __ALL__ you see) is the usual:
__1: Try using the typical fallacy, if that gets exposed, then…
__2: Try deflecting with things like straw man arguments, if that gets exposed, then…
__3: Try bullying! Call people names, and insult them, if that fails, then…
__4: Create another avatar, and start over… LOL
…then what you have is a campaign to discourage exposure of the truth behind “heightism”.
Heightism, like most irrational prejudice, is spawned from low self-esteem of the beholder. It is quite clear that the same defends it.
= = = = =
massimo88 says:
December 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm
Grow the frick up…oh yeah…LOL…(yawn)…NEXT!
____Answer__
Lol. (Are you getting drowsy yet, do you just always look that way?)
NEXT?
You are not even fooling yourself that you have emerged a victor, but you can believe whatever you wish. It certainly is curious how one (Massimo88) is so affected by comments to another supposedly different poster (Anne). In fact, let’s look at these interesting “coincidences”.
__1: Massimo88 posts a comment 21 minutes after Anne posts (Anne says: December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm… massimo88 says: December 16, 2012 at 10:22 pm)
__2: A rebuttal to Anne contained several sections that began with “Lol”, that Massimo88 now ridicules (remember that Massimo88 claims to not go through “Feet”s posts paragraph by paragraph)
__3: Instead of attaching to the rebuttal of Anne, Massimo88 now associates the response to a section prior to the introduction of the “Anne” avatar (in an attempt to disassociate the two avatars no doubt).
It is common for those who cannot argue their “case” to create the good-cop, bad-cop avatars in order to satisfy two competing agendas. The first is the need to appear as a person dedicated to respectful discussion. The second is the desire to harm those who have bruised their ego. Now that the “dedicated to debate” avatar has been exposed (by having serious contradictions in her arguments), the Massimo88 avatar is predictable on the warpath.
How apropos. What avatar will you be using “NEXT” M_Anne-assimo?
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= = = = =
@Everybody:
The return to trying to silence those one cannot debate via personal attack was quite predictable. Once the civil approach by one avatar was shown to contain some serious flaws in its arguments (to the point that one was now immediately contradicting oneself within the same paragraph) the name-calling campaign was expected to resume.
Though the post is attached here. Massimo88’s was responding to a “Feet” post just a day ago. Dates may appear differently, but this text can be used to find it on this page:
“When rebuttals become more and more filled with deflection, disambiguation and hyperbole, it is clear that there is little substance. Even convincing oneself increasingly becomes an exercise of evasion rather than enlightenment.”
Also, as usual, what few counterpoints Massimo88 has attempted here, are easily dispelled.
@Massimo88
Lol. This is about as predictable and weak as it gets. What new avatar will you use next to try and seem dedicated to respectful discussion (while using this one in the same old unsuccessful attempt to silence those you cannot debate)? We are all waiting for your Anne-swer.
Hello paranoia!
We are actually, not simply the same person, we are the same robot, built by the illuminati, through technologies perfected by the C.I.A. using a tiny camera that is injected in people’s stomachs through flu vaccines. There 1000s of us and our only purpose is to manufacture counterarguments to a stranger’s theory on people’s height on an internet blog about how some guys’ date pissed her pants.
The weighted the option of using us for international espionage, but they then realized that this was so much more important.
Yes, I’m ridiculing you. Fallaciam –at-riduculum, I would assume, yes?
I’m sorry, but if you reach an insulting degree of paranoia, don’t expect people to keep being civil.
It’s an internet forum, boy, take it easy, have an enjoyable abstract discussion with people you’ll never meet.
Aside from this very paranoid last streak, in general, I have to say I don’t find your manners of debate welcoming of any other perspectives, but your own. It is like you have these very precise, almost dogmatic, convictions on this subject and completely refuse to even knowledge any other take.
The use of words like truth instead of opinion, shown instead of argued, defining the act of exploring the context of an issue and other issues that are very clearly interlinked with it as ‘deflection’ remind me of fundamentalism.
The point is, no, you are not ACTUALLY teaching a class, you’re exchanging ideas on a public space.
[Lol. Relying on disambiguation are we now?
Most are aware you were referring to the “two sides here”, but you purposely elected to describe YOUR groups as:
__1: People who say there is some sort of height discrimination.
__2: People who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point.
(Yes, this is very clearly stated in the record)
Most are also aware that the criticism levied (and that you are trying to refute) is that you deliberately chose two groups that are described by DIFFERING variables (re-read the two vectors above as many times as required to confirm that this is indeed true).
People usually choose to improperly divide a group this way to provide “wiggle room” when their subsequent arguments are shown to be faulty. (“Oh… what I REALLY meant was…”) This is exactly what we see now.
No one (certainly not I, and you can check the posts above) took issue, in this context, that you didn’t address any of the things you now mention. You are misrepresenting (by inventing a criticism) in order to apply a refutation (a straw-man argument).]
Patronizing.
Obviously there can be many shades in the opinions expressed in these comments, the ones I interpreted as being the main sides of the debate were these two.
I think you misinterpreted my use of ‘can’t’: by saying’ what I find attractive can’t be policed’, I wasn’t referring to the fact that it’s hard or impossible to change your tastes, but that it is not unethical to have them and go with them and therefore shouldn’t be policed, that preferences on you mate’s looks are not a form of (negative, unethical) discrimination.
The two side I see are indeed these ones:
– People like you who think acting on these preferences are a form of discrimination, in its negative meaning
– People who don’t
Get it now?
Stop seeing straw-men everywhere, most of them are happily resting in cornfields, not here.
[The sides, again, are:
__1: Those who support the prejudice of heightism.
__2: Those who do not support the prejudice of heightism.
These are mutually exclusive. If you wish to say that this is NOT the definition of the “sides” you are referring to, feel free to provide, in no uncertain terms, the definition of such “sides” and how they are “somewhat” mutually exclusive.]
Definition of sides provided earlier.
Who’s strawmaning away now? you manufactured these two sides, almost nobody, aside from a few trolls has said to support the prejudice of heightism, BUT they have said that personal mate selection according to what attract you DOES NOT QUALIFY as the prejudice of heightism. Difference.
You manufactured a point of view to put against your own just now, wasn’t it what you were accusing me of doing?
[Sorry, YOU introduced the notion, by suggesting, “The people who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point”. We merely brought it to your attention that the lack of efficacy in enforcement does not mitigate the tort.
Again, you are still ignoring the critical __condition__ of “ethics” (“legitimacy” and “legality” too). The evaluation of it is dependent on the evaluator. We’ve already mentioned this clearly. If one chooses to believe that some act is moral, that doesn’t mean that it is moral in the judgment of peers. It may not even be valid should the situation be reversed. This is largely why the circular argument of “it’s un-beautiful because it’s un-beautiful” is impotent.
As we have mentioned above, heightists DON’T want to entertain the notion that they are negatively judged for promoting a prejudice. It’s OK “in their minds” to judge others based on an involuntary, immutable and an essentially innocuous trait, but not OK for others to judge them on their own actions.
This is difficult to refute (well, really it can’t.) This is why one chooses to assail the definition of the act as something other than a “prejudice”, or, claim that it is due to some unknown factor that is out of their control.]
I already explained to you how you misinterpreted that sentence.
YES: two different people are going to interpret the same act as ethical and unethical…the relativity of ethics, there you have it. The two people can also argue their reason for why they differ on the morality on an act (it’s what we’re doing), but none is arguing that their evaluations are going to be different. I can play, find-the-straw-man-everywhere too, you know, here’s one: I never argued against the fact the definition of something as ethical or unethical is dependent on the evaluator.
I can very well entertain the notion to be negatively judged, all you do is going to be negatively judged by at least someone.
But you are comparing two acts that are not the same thing and extending the meaning of the verb ‘to judge’ in a very loose way.
To not want to go out with someone is not to judge them. Do you judge negatively everyone you don’t want to go out with? I don’t judge the people I’m not attracted as anything else than’ not for me, romantically’.
Otherwise I’d be judging every single woman on the planet.
[“See, circular arguments are indeed weak.”
Nice try. You are attempting to imply that you meant to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of circular arguments. The truth is that you were __employing them__, and you were called to task for it. The record clearly shows this, Anne.
“one tiny factor”
The tiny factor you reference is not tiny (of course, you can attempt to refute this by being deliberately vague, “oh… that’s not what I meant as the factor” lol) This is a sly attempt at dismissing the factor of “trophy hunting to compensate for low self-esteem” as minor. It is not.
The evidence that those who are very proud of their denigration of shorter-than-average men have common traits is very easy to discover. Furthermore, the way in which some of these proponents “defend” their prejudice (not just here, but any place where the topic appears online) has all the hallmarks of lower-self esteem. These include, but are not restricted to:
__1: The employment of false reasoning (“I love my heels” is a popular one.)
__2: Reliance on false stereotypes (“they have Napoleon Complexes.)
__3: Denial of personal influence (“it’s natural instinct”)
__4: Outright Hostility (“[place derogatory term here]”)
__5: Reliance on multiple fallacies in defense (“Straw man arguments”,”Plea to Ignorance”, etc.)
What one is trying to obfuscate here too, is that these “other” factors (those “oh so mysterious” ones) even if they existed, do not have anywhere near the influence of this single factor of “a need to compensate for a perceived self-image inadequacy”.
We will cover off these “mysterious” factors in context briefly (well, relatively briefly)]
Come on. It wasn’t a ‘Look, I’ve in fact demonstrated that circular augments are weak’. It was ‘see, (as a colloquial way to being a sentence), it is in fact true that it is a weak argument, but it is the only one we can make’. Context, hun.
No, no, I meant the same by tiny factor, personal insecurities.
You listed a number of attitudes, very very different,
2 is in fact prejudice, attaching a behavior or personality trait to physical characteristic
4 is hate speech, which is indeed discrimination,
1 is someone I would define having kind of weird priorities, but still not committing any unethical or prejudicial act in choosing a partner according to them,
3 is someone who deems physical human attraction completely natural, I personally disagree, but having kind of a weak perspective on sexual attraction doesn’t make one an insecure person looking for a trophy
5. What you, sometimes rightfully, sometimes not, define as fallacious, also has nothing to do with one’s insecurity, more with one’s ability to informally debate a topic
While 4 is very easily linked to personal insecurities and maybe also 2, because the people who are so influenced by simplistic stereotypes sometimes may do it out of desire of integration due to insecurity, the rest appears to have no direct connection to it.
It’s what I was trying to say all along. Not being into a certain type of person physically doesn’t make you insecure, being an asshole about it, thinking that that physical characteristic carries something else with it and putting them down as human beings does.
[In respects to heightism, the element of low self-esteem in the beholder is significant. It is easily demonstrated in how those who hold the prejudice react to investigation. It quite common to see, “I need to feel petite” or “I don’t want to look like a giant” as a response. It is also demonstrated in how vague euphemisms are employed to describe themselves.
This is clear indication of an underlying self-image issue, and not a “tiny element” as one tries to dismiss it as. (In fact, attempting to dismiss it as such is further proof!)
In contrast, these “mysterious” elements are not exhibited under examination, yet you think they are creating greater influence on the final outcome beyond what CAN be seen. One can continue to fool oneself that these “invisible” factors are the major motivators, but that is why the concept of Occam’s Razor is applied in these cases. It is also why the “Plea to Ignorance” is a fallacy.]
At least now it is very clear what we disagree on.
You believe that, among all other factors, known and unknown, one’s insecurity is a fundamental element of what people (especially people who don’t find short men attractive) find or not find attractive. I tend to disagree, mostly because I haven’t been shown data to this claim. And no, I don’t consider people claiming to wanting to feel tiny compared to their partner as data, that seems to me to have more to do with the history of gender roles in relation to domination and submission, than with personal insecurity. And the idea, the visual representation of protection. I know that height has very little to do in reality with the ability to protect, by it remains a symbol, subconscious, artistic and historical symbol of it.
You can’t separate just one criteria of beauty (height) from all the others criteria that people have with regards to beauty. If finding short men unattractive is heightism, than there are tons of other isms with should list: baldism, symmetrism, and so on.
Of course, height seems to be, on average, the most important of these criteria, the first determinator of men’s attractiveness for women. Pretty much like a nice proportionate slender body is for men.
Now, weight you can change, height you can’t, but one trait being immutable won’t make it more attractive. It does make the ordeal more unfortunate for the people who possess that immutable trait, but also doesn’t make the people who find it unattractive wrong or unethical for not wanting to date a person who possesses it. None owes you a date because what makes you unattractive to them is not your fault.
I still don’t understand how not wanting to date those who don’t attract you makes you insecure or looking for a trophy boyfriend.
[Really? Exaggerate? Lol. Let’s see.
We are addressing the height restrictions that appear often in clear terms on online dating ads. As a “restriction” they are mean that NO ONE that does not surpass the test value is NOT TO APPLY. Please explain how that does NOT constitute “It’s really about finding something so repulsive, you will not accept it.” (Which is what was actually said).
So, exaggeration? No. Fact? Yes.]
The one person you’re quoting obviously found it repulsive, she said it, duh. We all have things we find sexually repulsive and obviously avoid them in our sexual partners. Saying it out loud like that: bit insensitive.
My guess it is that for the majority of the rest of people who put up precise restrictions it is more of a numbers game. They usually are attracted to a type of person and therefore put up parameters that give the more chances to meet a person like that.
It’s much like an age limit on a profile (ageism alert? Yes?). In a context with so many people on a site, you put up restriction that give you the best chances to meet someone with the characteristics you want, accepting the possibility to lose out on some people you might have liked regardless of a characteristic of them you’re usually not into. Otherwise, much like the guy who writes this site, you’d spend your entire time going on dates. People have jobs.
[That would be supported if the height requirements were not essentially typed free-form in the body of the ad description (which is how they generally appear.) No one is “FORCING” a heightist to write down the requirement this way. So. Nice try.
Height requirements being explicitly written largely demonstrate how some feel that it is a “badge of honour” to only be interested in trophies. It’s like saying, “I Only Drive Late model Aston Martins.” (It doesn’t mean I have the cash to buy or lease one, but “I’m only interested in automobiles that are worthy of my refined tastes or I’ll take public transit (rather than be seen with a cheaper model and make)”. Think about it, that is the EXACT parallel.
The behaviour may certainly exist outside of the online dating site, but it’s much harder to effectively “block” someone if they disagree with the attitude. That, and the fact that a disproportionate number of out-competed women are represented online.]
Oh, come one. Literal, much? Of course none is forcing anyone at gun point to write down anything. It’s a saying. The heat forced me to close the window, that guy’s annoyance forced me to punch him in the face. It wasn’t a try, it was a saying. Jesus.
Let me rephrase: as I explained above, the context of internet dating makes it pragmatic for a person to have restrictive requirements.
On writing it down specifically. I don’t know, I don’t do internet dating, but I would think that would serve the purpose of restricting the people who write to you to those you actual want to interact with, like an age limit. I don’t date over 35, so don’t write to me if you are…
I’m not saying an ad that says..’you fucking Napoleonic short guys, don’t you dare write to me, you sicken me’ is not written by a prejudiced asshole, let’s call him heightist, if you like the neologism, I’m simply saying that a requirement alone, in the context of selecting a mate, does not equal prejudice, or insecurity.
[You cannot contradict yourself any greater than this!
On one hand you say:
“We are the arts, and the arts are us”
“They portray us, while they make us”
On the other hand you say:
“What I argue against is equating art, or even entertainment, with peer pressure.”
You clearly make the case that the Arts are our peers, and that they “MAKE” us. Then you argue that this isn’t the case. Please. At this point, credibility is in question.]
I haven’t contradicted myself, you wrongly red it as a contradiction.
I don’t equate saying that the arts make us with peer pressure, you did that. The arts make us even before we are born, as part of history, shared symbols, a shared subconscious. We make the arts by either being artists of being what they portray.
If you want an example on the subject on HOW IMMENSELY peer pressure and being influenced by the arts are two different things, here it is.
Peer pressure would be your friend telling you ‘No, girl, ew, don’t date that boy, he’s short’ and you not dating him even if you like him. Being influenced by the arts is not liking him yourself, and the fact of not liking him being in part due to the arts’ influence on your perception of beauty.
[Lower self-esteem, body image issues and peer pressure being the main drivers are easily demonstrated. This has been done on numerous occasions on this thread. That no other factors, even the “mysterious” ones exhibit shows that other factors are relatively insignificant (if they exist at all).]
Not demonstrated, simply stated, by you as an opinion you called truth, because that’s how you debate. You say something you think, which may or may not have its merits, and then you call it truth.
[Yet, the frequent and consistent responses from heightists are quite measurable. Hence, it is not expectation, but observation.]
Between observation and deduction, there’s something in between and that would be the individual: you. You know that ordeal with filters, plato and his cave?Check it out.
Your power to deduct from observations is clearly very biased by your dogmatic convictions and your personal bias. I mean, you just observed and deduced that I was the alter-ego of some guy. That alone kind of says something to me.
[You just finished saying that “equating learned behaviours with peer pressure is even more wrong”, yet you now say that societal influences are required in the concept of beauty. This is essentially another contradiction.
Lol. You will have to choose a position.
Honestly, Anne, either you are just trying to be deliberately vague to facilitate subsequent rebuttal, or you really are confused. I’m not trying to denigrate you here. Think about it.]
Honestly, dude, look up the meaning of words before confusing distinguishing between a thing and another with a contradiction.
I have explained this to you already, peer pressure is different from having society playing a part in constructing your perception of beauty.
peer pressure n. Pressure from one’s peers to behave in a manner similar or acceptable to them.
Which is a very, very different thing from having, more or less consciously, society as a whole, history, arts, environment play a part in what you perceive as beautiful.
Once again.
Peer pressure is being into X, but not doing X because most people you have around are not into X and you are afraid of not conforming.
Having the society you live in influencing your tastes means honestly not being into X and being aware that not being into X (as well as pretty much everything else you are or are not into) necessarily has something to do with the society you live, because you don’t happen in a vacuum.
[Please, please try to understand the context and logic before attempting a rebuttal.
A determination of beauty having many elements that have no connection with “a person’s ability” does not logically imply that elements that explicitly EXCLUDE “a trait that does” are included.
What was said was:
“You would think that one thing that would be poignant in a course on aesthetics is that “beauty” in the human form will rarely manifest (outside of assistance from societal influences of course) as something that would __exclude__ a trait that is immutable, involuntary, does not hint at underlying disease, or a genetic flaw (covered in the previous response), or has no bearing on a person’s direct abilities.”
That does NOT translate to many (or all) traits that form the definition of beauty must have some bearing on a person’s abilities. (Which is what you are attempting to refute)]
Please, please, try to have more of an open mind when reading a point and not being so literal.
Simply by considering asymmetry, its very opposite, instead of symmetry the concept applies, I though you were able to get there on your own. Asymmetry is an involuntary immutable trait having no bearing on a person’s direct abilities that (on average, many times, there are exceptions of course. Just like there are for shortness) often excludes people who have it from being considered conventionally attractive by society at large.
And just like shortness, the more present the trait of a asymmetry is, the less conventionally attractive the person is going to be found.
[…and it has been clearly shown that it is merely a belief based on a conveniently faulty definition of “prejudice”]
Again, not shown. Argued, by you and your very personal definition of prejudice that has nothing to do with the one in the vocabulary.
Attaching a failing grade to a characteristic, with regards to selecting a mate it is something we all do. We do it with the person’s age, gender, looks and many other things. I’m sure you do it too. It’s not prejudice: you don’t deem that person unworthy of you because there’s something wrong with them, negative. He’s not bad in general, or ‘less than’ me, just not for me.
I don’t like V-neck shirts, they don’t fit me well, I don’t like them aesthetically and I don’t want them on me. Now, am I prejudiced against V-necks, do I think badly of V-necks, do I attach a failing grade to them as a whole? No, I just don’t want them on me. I choose my wardrobe and my boyfriends, according to my taste, without deeming all that I don’t choose as negative or unworthy of me, simply something I don’t like.
[No. No matter how many times you attempt to deflect this into a statement of how you decide your own morality, it is just a deflection.
No one is claiming that you do not possess the ability to decide, and judge your decision against your own code of conduct. This disambiguation is usually couched as “I have the right to choose how ever I wish” by the typical heightist.
However, observers, against their own code, judge your ACTIONS regardless of how YOU have deemed them. How this code more closely matches that of a reasonable and self-aware individual is what many do not want exposed.
Repeat this strawman argument as many times as you wish. It is a deflection the first time, and every time after that.]
The strawman returns. Strawmen everywhere. On sale.
You were the one who started talking about the relativity of ethics, my answer to that was basically a long way to say ‘duh’.
If one observer (you) judges my actions (not even mine in this case, when I stumbled into this page I believe it was the first time in my life I thought about dudes’ height for more than three seconds, I’m talking purely for debate’s sake) in a different way as how I have judged them, I will, again, say, duh…of course that can happen.
What I was doing before was arguing for the fact that I can make my own decisions and judge them ethical, but I was arguing for those decisions appearing like those of a reasonable, ethical and self-aware individual, but you haven’t replied to that with other than ‘Well, that’s YOUR perception of rational and ethical’. Of course it’s mine, I’m writing.
[What are you disagreeing with, precisely? Your refutation purposely does not address what was being examined and instead segues into other aspects (a common “deflective” ploy). We had already covered the application of the individual prejudices, so the underlying nature was the apparent subject.
The criticism was levied on your supposition that heightism differs in nature from gender and ethnic intolerance. It aptly demonstrated that the nature of discrimination was the same in each case. It didn’t touch upon the application of the bias, because the comment sought to dismiss heightism based on IT being of a different nature (and not how it was applied).]
I’m disagreeing exactly with the fact that the nature is the same. I wasn’t talking about application, I was talking about nature.
Stop seeing ploys to deflect from god knows what every time you don’t understand something well. It’s ok to misinterpret, not understand someone else, but don’t jump to the paranoiaohmygodaploy every time you do. Wait a second a consider the option that the other person was actually addressing that specific point and you didn’t get the way in which they were doing it.
The nature of gender prejudice is not based on the insecurity of the perpetrator, it is based on a social force of conservation apt at keeping or regaining an economic, and therefore social, privilege. So is class discrimination and so is discrimination against blacks in America. Structural is not only the application, structural is the nature, the nature to try and hold on to the means of production.
And please, close down that Wikipedia page on fallacies.
And I would like to add, the reason why I’m responding here, a blog I usually only read for laughter, is because this is close to home for me: You dismissed my own problems with my heigh as irrilevant but I suffered alot because of this. Not romantically, no, but with regards to something much more important to me. I loved modelling, even if it was only catalogues and stock photos for magazines , I was always told that I could move and carry clothes brilliantly…if only I had 5 more inches I could have a serious thing going on for me. I know rejection, the ‘you’re better for the face shots’, the ‘at least be as skinny as humanly possibile and disintegrate in the process, because you”ll look taller’ and the utter and complete restriction from runway. They had requirements and they were entitled to those, but like meny short men on the internet, I wasn’t even given the chance, rejected contantly. I even seriously considered a lenghtening operation, but they don’t do those on people of average height, not the ones with more than a 3% chance of not leaving a scalple in your tie at least. Even during acting auditions sometimes that evil ”woman, caucasian, 56 to 510,..” line appears. but they don’t even seem to notice that you’re not actually 56 if you know how to dress and keep your posture.
Pick the context that suits you best, mine was acting, yours ,I believe, may be as simple as normal dating. No pre requisite numer and a fair chance in the race there..
@ everybody
Unlike aspirations of being in the pages of US magazine, shorter-than-average men are only seeking the erosion of a prejudice that has notable negative effects on their attempts to be part of a basic human experience: being accepted as part of the social dating milieu.
= = = = =
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details:
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
See, Feet, what I think we mainly disagree about is the role of attraction and how it should be dealt with.
Response:
No. It’s been quite clear in what concepts were incorrectly represented.
The “role of attraction” has not been brought up because it is an underlying truism. It would be like a person, after being shown their algebraic deductions were incorrect to step back and ponder the point of algebra and how it affects daily life. It’s merely attempting to detract from the faults in an original set of assertions: nothing more than a deflection.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
As I see it, the average of what is found attractive in given time and place in history is a complex mixture of so many things, from the media to biology, that are too long to list and too intricate to analyse. But attraction is certainly discriminatory in terms and linked to other types of discrimination. It can be critiqued, sure, but surely not regulated.
Response:
Come now. Not only is this just hyperbole, the premise is unfounded. Aversion to shorter-than-average men has little to do with __ATTRACTION__. Being that the focus has been (and has always been) the RESTRICTION based on height, it is about AVERSION to the point of avoidance. To that end, it has been shown that this aversion is based solely on the need to compensate for a lowered self-image of the heightist.
As far as “regulation”, you actually brought this up since you claimed that it was the way in which height is generally specified in conventionalized discreet increments that help create the aversion. It was shown that this was incorrect. You also referenced the notion that because laws existed for employment but not for dating candidacy, they could not be compared. This was also shown to be unfounded.
Speaking of “Regulation”:
Just as it was pointed out that regulations, even clearly passed into law, has little effect if it is burdensome to police and enforce (see the part about how corporations only have to stick to “our preference not to hire”.) However, regulation, in the form of peer pressure has much more effect. Why do you think that heightists and their defenders will attempt to dissuade conversation on this (whether it be by deflection, straw man arguments or ad hominem)? This is why they will constantly try to either “blame the victim” or at the very least say that it’s not a big deal and there’s nothing we can do about it.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Everyone has preferences, even those ugly requirements, even you.
Response:
Merely another deflection: The question has never been about whether or not people have affinities, or even if they had aversions to the point of exclusion. The former is “preference”. The latter is a “requirement”. For heightism it is about their irrationality and projected self-esteem issues: not that people have likes, dislikes and abhorrence.
When that requirement is based on false stereotypes, projected poor self-image, media-driven peer pressure it definitively crosses the boundaries into prejudice. To dismiss this prejudice as just another preference is merely trying to downplay it.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
The fact that the characteristic you carry is a requirement for more people, it is sad for you, but not necessarely a reflection on those people, I don’t think being selective and making the pool of people you interact with more lickley to be attractive for you makes you a bad person.
Response:
It is quite the opposite. The aversion is carried within the mind of the person WITH the prejudice. It is absolutely the reflection of the beholder.
Again, being “selective” is not an issue. It’s being “exclusive of” that is.
The overall evaluation of a person as “good” or “bad” is definitely affected by things like having a prejudice. However, depending on what the prejudice is based on, or how it deeply it manifests, a single prejudice may not do make a person one or the other. If anything, this is one of the typical straw men that people prop up. “What? Are you saying I’m a bad person???” I’m not. I’m basically good. Beat that straw man. Beat. Beat. Beat.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
If you do that,not because of an actual preference, aestethic ideal or whatever, but bcause you want to be seen on the street with someone your friends will applaude, well, you’re simply sad, and probably 15.
Response:
Yet, that is exactly what most (if not all) heightists in the online dating world are doing. They want to be seen with someone they feel their peers will be envious of. It’s ALL about how they look to others. We agree it is rather juvenile.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Your comparison with blog responses doesn’t sound appropriate to me. That’s an open space of many people, that implicitly welcomes everyone, (more similar to not being let into a club because of your height/weight/attire/pink hair)
Response:
Lol. You literally agree with what I am saying yet you state it doesn’t sound appropriate?
The point __IS__ that if a blog DID have such a “requirement”, it would be much less of an OPEN SPACE. Just what part of that comparison is not correct? Certainly a bloggist can and will have affinities, but exclusion based on a trait that is essentially innocuous to the poster’s potential contribution? Is that not EXACTLY like an exclusion based on a man’s height?
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
You’re talking about a two people scenario here, where someone sets standards on whom they want to interact with on a romantic level. The right comparison would be someone blocking me from pming them because I’m X(a woman or whatever characteristic of mine) and the only reason they’re on the blog is for romance.
Response:
OK. We’ll try explaining again.
“Height is to candidacy-to-date” as “Gender is to candidacy-to-post”
Both height and gender, in and of itself has no bearing on the suitability of the candidate. Within reasonable limits, a man can be every bit a man (as well as produce tall children since that is largely a function of nutrition in the early years) just a woman can be every bit a good contributor to a blog. If one argues that it’s just “a feeling” that it doesn’t seem attractive, then that can be applied equally to both situations. What is happening is that one thinks that height is a critical component of man’s physique, but thinks that gender is not a critical component of a poster’s views. Both can be affected by prejudice as well as the reinforcement of such bias through media and peer pressure.
It is a valid simile. If I have to explain this again, you either really don’t get it, or are unwilling to.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
And they don’t want to shag X, statistically in their life the hardly found X attractive, maybe a few times they did, but it wouldn’t be functional for them to go through all the Xs because they could eventually find that oneinamillion they fancy. It would be the nice thing to do to give absolutely everyone a chance to be in the ‘race’, but they should make online dating their profession for that to have a chance to work.
Response:
Contrary to what a lot of heightists like to believe, aversion to less-than-average height is not innate. If they hardly found X attractive, it is through conditioning. If we were to accept such reasoning, all sorts of racism and gender bias would remain at archaic levels. After all, Jack hardly ever found X ethnicity attractive, so let’s continue the discrimination. Right.
Simply because we can’t logistically offer an opportunity to every single candidate online, does not exonerate discrimination (the “perfect solution” fallacy). The point is to work towards a more mature and tolerant views and away from more juvenile and intolerant ones.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
There is a difference between public and private life, employment and romance, you can’t legislate people’s mating choices.
Response:
It’s never been about the extremism of “legislating” candidate choices. This is another straw man being propped up. However it is about realizing that intolerance is all about the issues of the beholder and not that of the target. As far as the differences between those subjects, it has already been shown how it can be they can be aptly compared.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
And discriminating on a changeble trait doesn’t make the act any better, saying ‘well, at least they can change that’ implyies that everyone should try and mold themselves into society standards of beauty in order to have higher chances at dating. Where does it end? at this point any physical characteristic is virtually modifiable if you go to enough extremes.
Response:
Lol. Actually if we did not rate people on performance relative to potential performance, that would negate the whole point of achievement on practically everything in the world. Heck, why use logic to defend a position. Both points, the well constructed defensible AND the illogical patchwork dependant indefensible one would be equally acceptable then. Please.
In your rhetorical question, there lays disambiguation. It is NOT about people moulding themselves into societal standards of beauty, but rather about being judged on the presentation of one’s __OWN DEFINITION__ of self. That should be obvious. Most people don’t mind if you don’t like what they create however, find me a single person that likes getting dismissed on something that is not their own volition or brand. Do you really believe that being on the receiving end of discrimination is not demeaning?
As far as the hyperbole of “where does it end”, the whole point is that adult height, for all intents and purposes, is not alterable. In contrast, many of the physical characteristics that women get passed over for, ARE.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
I agree, there seems to a be a discrimination, beyond dating, towards short men, among many other groups, and it is good to bring attention to it, it is they only wat to change things, but I think dating should be the least of your arenas, as it is an extremely personal choice, mostly coming from the belly, not the head.
Response:
No. The “innate” excuse has been debunked as many times as people have used it as an excuse. Considering the amount of women who only want “at least average height”, it is NOT coming “from the belly”. It is clearly coming from the media-reinforced notion that you aren’t a winner unless you have a trophy that is better than your peer’s trophy.
Essentially, your choice IS YOUR choice. What? You are deciding on something because some random person 1,100 km away says so? Of course it is your “personal choice.” However, the irony is that because a lot of it __IS__ media driven, that choice could be seem as something decided by someone sitting in an advertising firm, say, 1,100 km away.
Juls says:
July 16, 2012 at 11:38 pm
I empathise with the situation, it sucks, but there’s no bad guy here. Ok, maybe the aforementioned 15 yo, but that would be like gettingmad at the baby beacause it’s pissing in the diaper.
Response:
Ah, and within that lays the inconvenient truth. There is a “bad guy” in all this. Why do you think that heightism is always defended by faulty logic, with a steady retreat smoke-screened by deflection and followed with a rear guard of other less admirable tactics?
The truth is that heightism is a prejudice that has no foundation in maturity. This is something that every heightist doesn’t want to hear or, more importantly, have the public at large hear. This is why they will attempt to obfuscate the issue, dismiss it, or try to derail the topic altogether.
As far as infant incontinence, most people don’t get mad: they just change the diapers. We seem to be doing a lot of diaper changes here. Lol.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 12:42 am
And I would like to add, the reason why I’m responding here, a blog I usually only read for laughter, is because this is close to home for me: You dismissed my own problems with my heigh as irrilevant but I suffered alot because of this.
Response:
The whole point about the ability to respond was: If one was compelled to respond to defend one’s position, but could not, you would then understand why it is particularly offensive to shorter-than-average men when they are not allowed to respond to an ad. This has apparently been lost in your strong desire to present your case. Curious, is that not?
We have NOT dismissed your own problems in their own right. As you say, they are dismissed for being irrelevant in both magnitude and intensity when compared to the challenges faced by shorter-than-average men in the online dating world. If you have suffered immensely because of your height, is there someone or something stopping you from creating a blog on the inequity in the fashion industry? If it is particularly poignant, would it not be better to create a forum focused on that instead of coming to one focused on “shorter than average men in the online dating world”? Actions speak much louder than words. Chances are, few if any shorter-than-average guys will be going there to hijack it.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 12:42 am
Not romantically, no, but with regards to something much more important to me. I loved modelling, even if it was only catalogues and stock photos for magazines , I was always told that I could move and carry clothes brilliantly…if only I had 5 more inches I could have a serious thing going on for me. I know rejection, the ‘you’re better for the face shots’, the ‘at least be as skinny as humanly possibile and disintegrate in the process, because you”ll look taller’ and the utter and complete restriction from runway.
Response:
I see. “Important to you” so therefore, it should be important enough to commandeer a thread on shorter-than-average men to talk about it. This is actually a critical point. Ask yourself, “Should I be talking about this here?” Do not mistake directness in pointing out inappropriateness as a lack of compassion. If you create a blog about that, and direct me to it, I may elect to join in your crusade. However, can you not see how purposely distracting it would be if some others and I went there only to talk about the problems of left-handed people in a right-handed world?
Speaking of fashion modeling:
The modeling facet of the fashion industry, is ENTIRELY.by definition, by intent and by execution, based on LOOKS defined by the industry. It has nothing to do with any other capability of the model. The ability to speak coherently may not even be a consideration. You would know this going into it, and if you didn’t you would certainly realize it within a short time. It is no different than the professional sports industry being based on athleticism. Only a fool would think that one could be guaranteed a position on a team if his or her on field performance was inadequate.
There are specific requirements that were ARTIFICIALLY (yes ARTIFICIALLY) created and have become instituted in the profession. Being a particular height for runway was one of them. This is the industry. Being part of this small segment of a broad spectrum of careers is hardly comparable to being rejected from a large part of the population on a fundamental part of the human experience.
To attempt to equate the two situations is like trying to say that shorter-than-average men are all complaining about not having a several Internet bikini models as their harem. There’s a very small segment of the population that can achieve such aspirations. No. Shorter-than-average guys are only looking for a chance to be considered at all.
Such a comparison is utter nonsense
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 12:42 am
They had requirements and they were entitled to those, but like meny short men on the internet, I wasn’t even given the chance, rejected contantly. I even seriously considered a lenghtening operation, but they don’t do those on people of average height, not the ones with more than a 3% chance of not leaving a scalple in your tie at least. Even during acting auditions sometimes that evil ”woman, caucasian, 56 to 510,..” line appears. but they don’t even seem to notice that you’re not actually 56 if you know how to dress and keep your posture.
Response:
Again, no one is trying to limit “entitlement to preference” or “entitlement to requirement”. You can lay down those straw men. It has always been the reasons behind the “requirement” that heightists don’t want anyone else to hear about.
(Not given a chance? See the part about “Speaking of fashion modeling” above.)
On being a thespian:
Let’s get something clear here. There is a big difference between acting and being a Hollywood star. If you wished satisfy your love of the stage, there are many avenues to do so that are not limited by one’s height. Not only that, if you are good enough at the craft, you will have a long and satisfying career that will encompass gigs in feature films, television and live theatre. You may even be so well acclaimed that you will become a Hollywood Star (they aren’t ALL just a pretty face and standing 5-6)
If you want to be a celebrity in the star machine, well then you have to be what THEY define as a star.
Again, this is an ELITE club in a SMALL sector of the human experience. As such, it is NOT COMPARABLE to the issue that shorter-than-average men have in the online dating world (as well as to a lesser degree, the outside world.) They just want to be part of the game. You wanted to be the TOP of a select game. There’s a world of difference between the two situations.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 12:42 am
Pick the context that suits you best, mine was acting, yours ,I believe, may be as simple as normal dating. No pre requisite numer and a fair chance in the race there..
Response:
The context here is the subject. Basically that is the challenges faced by shorter-than-average men in the dating world, and how the online arena has amplified it.
No “prerequisite number”? That is wholly disingenuous. The number is clearly “average height + 2 inches”. A “Fair chance in the race”? Again, being excluded based on an innate, innocuous and immutable trait is hardly a “fair chance.” Your “context” is not so much “acting” as it is being part of the elite “Hollywood celebrity” club. That’s a small segment of a privileged crowd built on superficial values. If you loved acting, you’d be an actor.
Unlike aspirations of being in the pages of US magazine, shorter-than-average men are only seeking the erosion of a prejudice that has notable negative effects on their will to be part of a basic human experience: being accepted as part of the social dating milieu.
There’s a huge difference. To pretend you don’t see it is no longer without the penalty of insincerity.
(Start that blog on the fashion industry. Point us to it. It may be interesting.)
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@everybody
Unlike aspirations of being in the pages of US magazine, shorter-than-average men are only seeking the erosion of a prejudice that has notable negative effects on their attempts to be part of a basic human experience: being accepted as part of the social dating milieu.
Hey @feet, you’re right, there are certain things I’m not actually getting, like the point about discretes, in defence English isn’t my first language, can you try and explain things as you would a foreign teenager (which I am).
Firstly, I’m not highjacking a blog on the hardship of being a short man in the world of on-line dating, this is a comedy blog on on-line dating, aimed at the general public, not only at those who practice it. Even if a semi-serious discussion springs from it, which is good, it is still not a support group.
I didn’t bring up that coparison on the account of ‘it is hard for me too, whine…whine’, I never meant to complain on the merits of the fashion industry (on this regard, other things…well. I would if I could) and bitch at them, I gave one example of being faced with rejectiong due to an height requirement I couldn’t meet, being sort of broken by it, therefore empathising with the situation to one degree, but not blaming the people who set those requirements (clothes, especially on runways, do look better on tall people, as well as unhealthly skinny ones, it highlights the design and not the model wearing it). Of course, it is very different arenas, I agree, but I would assume the feeling of rejection ( and fuck, I can’t do anything to change it) resonates and this is why I felt like commenting in the first place.
And by the way, this is off topic, but you brought it up, it takes much much more than a bunch of physical requirements to be a model, otherwise any tall girl on a diet could be one, and it is simply not so.
Also, it is not like; I woke up on day and went like ‘ i wanna be a model even tho’ I’m a shortie’ and was suprised when I didn’t work, that would be idiotic. I was asked to join an agency that had a ‘tween’ department when I was 11 ( I was already acting, that’s why we came into contact in the first place) and after being praised for 3 years, it is not that obvious at 14 that if they’re now rejecting you they have every single right to. Off topic, but just to clarify that I’m not THAT clouless. Even if you’re someone who has always enjoyed acting on the account of your passion and enjoyment of the craft, that industry it is quite intoxicating at that age, especially if you’re someone who regards fashion as an art form you adore.
And I have no interest for american celebrity culture, also, it is kind of surreal to me, but I resent the assumption that if you have a desire to be also in film and television productions, other than theatre, you must be some parishilton wannabe. Plus, talentless us magazine bimbos come in all heights really, the hight requirment you find in character descriptions usually only exsist on the account of who has already been casted.
You seem to not know very much about this, especially with regards to Europe, please don’t assume to know my desire, motivations and goals.
What I didn’t find appropriate in your blog example is that it is not a twopertwo space, it is a discussion which includes multiple people going back and forth, so it is more like ‘access to a club’, where dating is more ‘access to a candlelit dinner in my house’.
Plus, the similar ‘reason for exclusion’ you attribute to the blogger not wantng to hear the female point of view and the girl not wanting to date the short man, don’t resonate well with me.
Person A,usually has a reason to not wanting to interact with girls that attaches some random characteristic to womanhood. They’re stupid, immature, vain, yada yada yada and it is out of that conviction they exclude them. that is prejudice.
Person B, may attach some radom characteristic to a short guy (napoleon complex or inability to protect, from what I’ve seen above) and IN THAT CASE, we agree, it is the same thing, but B may also simply not sexually fancy that characteristic (while there is no such thing, by definition, as intellectually fancying). It is still discrimination, yes, of course, but not prejudice.
Yes, we are coming back to the matter of attraction, not becauseI use it as a circular argument, but because we seem to disagree on where attraction comes from. You say that it ALL comes down to the media, I disagree. I never said it think it is innate, god no, I don’t even think sexual orientation is always and completly innate (and that tells you something on my position on the naturevsnuture debate), but I think it comes from a subconscious place and a very complex variety of factors, including biological, psychological and cultural ones.
Why do we as a society find X good looking and why do I find Y (which tends to have many elements of X, but not all) attractive? Very good questions that I don’t think are ever going to be completely answered. I think ‘ because the media told you so and you have no indipendence from it!’ is a very simplistic answer.
Height seems to be on the top of the list of what women find good looking, body shape on top for men. One can be changed ( to a degree, no weight loss is ever going to give you an ideal hips to waist ratio), the other can’t, ideally that should drive people to give short men a pass, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t because ‘ how much effort they put into making themselves pretty’ is often not a criteria, effortless beauty doesn’t turn one on anyless less than beauty achieved throgh hard work.
I believe you when you say that body shape doesn’t get turned into a requirement from me as much as height does, in my opionion, that is due to the fact that, as far as dating, on-line dating especially I would assume, women have a stronger market value and can get away with heigher requirements. That sucks in so many ways, from a human perspective and feminist one, but concerns a completely different topic. If the ‘market’ would allow them, I’m pretty sure men would write down ‘average bmi and a bcups at least’ just as much.
Plus, I’m still convinced that, even if people with ugly facial features don’t get their messages filtered, they still get all their messages ignored as soon as people see their pictures, which is pretty much the same thing. They are not actally given a chance, just the pretence of one.
Now, I never said the reason why I believe ‘publi’ and ‘private’ discriination are different is because one is illegal; I said illegal/immoral (meaning immoral, therefore it had some sense making it illegal).
Certainly what we find beautiful and attractive doesn’t happen in a vacuum, it is also influenced by other types of actually prejudiced discrimination. I think it would be more reasonable to actively fight those and I’m sure it will also effect ‘subconscious discriminations’ to a degree.
In my experience, my social group, I haven’t actually found true that the preference for tall me is so visible. maybe it is most girls’ ideal, if they were to draw prince charming on a piece of paper, but in reality most of the shorter guys I know do pretty well. And these are not people who pride themselves with being politically correct, artists usually don’t have a problem with admitting their appreciation of beauty (or what they perceiv as such).
Probably in a much more artificial and calculated setting, it is hard to bring to life all of those nuances that make your beauty requirements often disappear.
But still, I’m still not convinced the opposite makes anyone superficial or unworthy, if their motives are reasonable.
Think of wanting to take a holiday in the country, you’re going to pick the french estate you find gorgeous, even all funcionalities being equal, over the house somewhere in Ucraine, where you don’t like the view around you at all, if you can afford it. You want to be somewhere beautiful, you want to like what you see.
Now, the reason why you find blossoming praires more appealling than shurbs is certainly not innate, it is a social construct none the less, and it is not the fault of the ucrainian people if they were not blessed with landscapes that are seen as beautiful. Most people, and us society as a whole find flowers pretty because of history, art, the media, the season of the year we subconsciouly associate them with and a million other things, it is not an indipendent innate feeling, we don’t come from mars. But it is still a legitimate desire to go to france.
Now, if you actually fancy both landascapes you simply don’t consider ucrain because you are (consciously) convinced that shurbs smell bad when it is not true or you simply want to show your dumb friends piture of your ‘cool’ holiday, we would agree on that person being prejudiced/ 15. And if I were you I would make my own requirement not to date such people.
But I don’t think this describes most peope who find short men (or anything else) unattractive, people’s reason for their idea of beauty is subconscious and highly complex. So if what we’re talking about are motives, I don’t think most people can be blamed for them. And mostly I don’t think the most private thing there is in someone’s life in where it is right/functional to start a fight agast discriination.
@everybody:
The very nature of height discrimination being a social injustice is good enough of a reason to expose it for the ugliness that it is. How intimate it is to one’s feelings about oneself is more reason to take issue with it. Essentially heightists deal with their own feelings of inadequacy by harbouring revulsion for a group that is visibly marginalized. How is that any different than how ethnic or gender intolerance infects the psyche?
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Specific Answers:
@Juls
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Hey @feet, you’re right, there are certain things I’m not actually getting, like the point about discretes, in defence English isn’t my first language, can you try and explain things as you would a foreign teenager (which I am).
Response:
Certainly, I have patience as well as compassion.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Firstly, I’m not highjacking a blog on the hardship of being a short man in the world of on-line dating, this is a comedy blog on on-line dating, aimed at the general public, not only at those who practice it. Even if a semi-serious discussion springs from it, which is good, it is still not a support group.
Response:
Oh, but the actions taken point to nothing but hijacking (perhaps not deliberate, but that’s what it is.)
Whether the blog was couched in comedy, tragedy or as a puppet show, the __SUBJECT MATTER__ of it is pretty clear. To constantly bring up the challenges of other groups as if they were anywhere as prevalent or significant as heightism in online dating when it has been clearly shown to be not, is just harassment. To pretend that one cannot understand that the TITLE a clear indication of the SUBJECT is specious.
The nature of the forum need not be a “support group” to make it clear that it isn’t about anything BUT the SUBJECT.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
I didn’t bring up that coparison on the account of ‘it is hard for me too, whine…whine’, I never meant to complain on the merits of the fashion industry (on this regard, other things…well. I would if I could) and bitch at them, I gave one example of being faced with rejectiong due to an height requirement I couldn’t meet, being sort of broken by it, therefore empathising with the situation to one degree, but not blaming the people who set those requirements (clothes, especially on runways, do look better on tall people, as well as unhealthly skinny ones, it highlights the design and not the model wearing it). Of course, it is very different arenas, I agree, but I would assume the feeling of rejection ( and fuck, I can’t do anything to change it) resonates and this is why I felt like commenting in the first place.
Response:
You directly stated THE VERY COMPARISON (essentially, “it is hard for me too, whine…whine”) on your post dated, July 17, 2012 at 12:42 am:
“You dismissed my own problems with my heigh as irrilevant but I suffered alot because of this. Not romantically, no, but with regards to something much more important to me.”
(Also, where did I say, or imply that you were “blaming” the people who set the requirements?)
The point of our criticism was again: While you felt that being rejected from runway work based on an essentially innate and immutable trait, the comparison could not be made to the challenges faced by shorter-than-average men in the online dating scenario. This is largely due to the fact that your aspirations were to be part of an elite membership, while the men only wanted to NOT be shunned from a very basic human experience (that of being a seen as a viable part of the social milieu.)
Read that as the difference between wanting to be the “It crowd” versus just being part of “the crowd.”
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
And by the way, this is off topic, but you brought it up, it takes much much more than a bunch of physical requirements to be a model, otherwise any tall girl on a diet could be one, and it is simply not so.
Also, it is not like; I woke up on day and went like ‘ i wanna be a model even tho’ I’m a shortie’ and was suprised when I didn’t work, that would be idiotic. I was asked to join an agency that had a ‘tween’ department when I was 11 ( I was already acting, that’s why we came into contact in the first place) and after being praised for 3 years, it is not that obvious at 14 that if they’re now rejecting you they have every single right to. Off topic, but just to clarify that I’m not THAT clouless. Even if you’re someone who has always enjoyed acting on the account of your passion and enjoyment of the craft, that industry it is quite intoxicating at that age, especially if you’re someone who regards fashion as an art form you adore.
Response:
The point is that many people feel they are something, but betray that they may be not.
Really? Just what “more” does it take to be a fashion model in comparison to other vocations? The last time I checked, there isn’t a 4 year undergraduate program for Cat-walking. Perhaps there is a 2 year intensive technology program in magazine cover modeling you wish to point us to? Or is it like becoming a physician? Maybe you have to do 3 years residency in Milan before you get the PhD in posing. Models Sans Frontiers? Please. Don’t over-inflate the “skill set” required. Yes. I’m being sarcastic, but really, in the scheme of things, it’s not a skill-intensive career.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
And I have no interest for american celebrity culture, also, it is kind of surreal to me, but I resent the assumption that if you have a desire to be also in film and television productions, other than theatre, you must be some parishilton wannabe. Plus, talentless us magazine bimbos come in all heights really, the hight requirment you find in character descriptions usually only exsist on the account of who has already been casted.
The assertion was based on your comments such as:
“Even during acting auditions sometimes that evil ‘woman, caucasian, 56 to 510,..’
You can certainly resent an assumption or even a deduction based on volunteered evidence (as that was what the assertion was.) Again there is a distinction between being in an industry and wanting to be in the elite circle of it. Someone who admits to seriously contemplating leg lengthening who also admonishes the character descriptions on a script PARTICULAR to an idealized female form: This is clear indication that the desire to be acting is not the ONLY goal. You wanted the roles reserved for the superlative, and called it “evil” that they did include you in that superlative.
The language you currently use to describe those that grace the pages of paparazzi pulp betray a very strong bitterness towards those that were selected. This is further evidence that they occupy a position that you felt you deserved as well. So, it is not a mere assumption.
(I’m not judging you on having that resentment. Most people would feel the same way.)
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
You seem to not know very much about this, especially with regards to Europe, please don’t assume to know my desire, motivations and goals.
Response:
Your audience knows what you have revealed to them. If your motivations and goals are wholly different from what you have stated, then that is really a consequence misrepresentation (and not of subsequent cognition.) If you feel that you have actually represented yourself clearly and concisely, the record is not supporting this.
I do empathize with your challenges in the creative arts industry. Like a lot of industries, it’s rife with the abuse of people and power.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
What I didn’t find appropriate in your blog example is that it is not a twopertwo space, it is a discussion which includes multiple people going back and forth, so it is more like ‘access to a club’, where dating is more ‘access to a candlelit dinner in my house’.
Response:
In the CONTEXT of the metaphor, no!
Permission to present your case in a blog is __NO DIFFERENT__ than permission to present your case in sitting across a table bathed in a flickering orange glow. In both cases the gatekeeper must accept you request. Should the gatekeeper’s decision be altered by prejudice, it is the same outcome of inability-to-compete in each case. Just HOW is that different?
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Plus, the similar ‘reason for exclusion’ you attribute to the blogger not wantng to hear the female point of view and the girl not wanting to date the short man, don’t resonate well with me.
Person A,usually has a reason to not wanting to interact with girls that attaches some random characteristic to womanhood. They’re stupid, immature, vain, yada yada yada and it is out of that conviction they exclude them. that is prejudice.
Person B, may attach some radom characteristic to a short guy (napoleon complex or inability to protect, from what I’ve seen above) and IN THAT CASE, we agree, it is the same thing, but B may also simply not sexually fancy that characteristic (while there is no such thing, by definition, as intellectually fancying). It is still discrimination, yes, of course, but not prejudice.
Response:
“Sproingggg” (sound something breaking inside my head.) Please. Are you even reading what you say? Person “A” can use the same non-introspective excuse of “I’m just not intellectually attracted to girls” so they can’t post. It is both discrimination and prejudice.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Yes, we are coming back to the matter of attraction, not becauseI use it as a circular argument, but because we seem to disagree on where attraction comes from. You say that it ALL comes down to the media, I disagree.
Response:
Just __WHERE__ do I say or imply that “Attraction all comes down to the media”?
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
I never said it think it is innate, god no, I don’t even think sexual orientation is always and completly innate (and that tells you something on my position on the naturevsnuture debate), but I think it comes from a subconscious place and a very complex variety of factors, including biological, psychological and cultural ones. Why do we as a society find X good looking and why do I find Y (which tends to have many elements of X, but not all) attractive? Very good questions that I don’t think are ever going to be completely answered. I think ‘ because the media told you so and you have no indipendence from it!’ is a very simplistic answer.
Response:
When you couch it as “from the belly” (as opposed to from the head) you are basically saying that it is NOT a conscious choice. Since coercion is necessarily dependent on cognition of it there are two other influences left (not including randomness of course): Innate and subconscious. You clearly state you feel the media does not hold that much sway, therefore the deduction is that this “gut feeling” is essentially “innate.”
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Height seems to be on the top of the list of what women find good looking, body shape on top for men. One can be changed ( to a degree, no weight loss is ever going to give you an ideal hips to waist ratio), the other can’t, ideally that should drive people to give short men a pass, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t because ‘ how much effort they put into making themselves pretty’ is often not a criteria, effortless beauty doesn’t turn one on anyless less than beauty achieved throgh hard work.
Response:
Height is at the “top of the list” because of one of those “Hollywood idealisms” that was created through a misconception of an original phrase. That phrase was “Tall, dark and Handsome.” Look it up. You will see that the original meaning of it referred to the physical aspects of a woman’s face in a novel (from the 1800’s if I recall.) It’s only when Hollywood decided to make a movie by the same name, and with it promoting the image of a “Tall, dark and handsome” man, that the concept took off.
It may have been amongst a list of attributes that people considered, but there was nothing “innate” about the exaggeration we see today. Furthermore, back then, it wasn’t a “must have,” like it has apparently become in the online world. So, if you think that there is no media influence involved, the fashion and cosmetic industries must all be fools for spending so much effort in marketing. Heck just let people believe their “belly”, there’s no point in influencing them via positive reinforcement of a product. It will never work. See what I’m getting at?
Hip to waist Ratio?
That may be an “ideal”, but it is not a “must have”. It should not take a rocket scientist (a male one that is) to realize that most guys (tall ones or short ones) all look for “well maintained and healthy.” They really don’t care that much about this hip to waist ratio. They definitely don’t make it a “must have” (lol. “She’s OK, if only she had the right hip-to-waist ratio.”)
Effortless beauty vs. non-effortless beauty.
It’s not the effort any care about. The final outcome is “beauty” and more often than not, beauty takes effort. That is what I said.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
I believe you when you say that body shape doesn’t get turned into a requirement from me as much as height does, in my opionion, that is due to the fact that, as far as dating, on-line dating especially I would assume, women have a stronger market value and can get away with heigher requirements. That sucks in so many ways, from a human perspective and feminist one, but concerns a completely different topic. If the ‘market’ would allow them, I’m pretty sure men would write down ‘average bmi and a bcups at least’ just as much.
Response:
A better glimpse into the ideals of body shape would be to see what sells as far as pornography. Although there are niche markets for all shapes and sizes, the generally desired shape is pretty much an average height and fit build (but not to the point of a tri-athlete.) There’s no particular colour of hair or skin either. This is in contradiction to what heightists always say are the “perfect” woman that all guys want (“blond”, “big bxxbx”, “Barbie doll”.)
As far as not stating requirements, a lot of men’s profiles do state they want someone who takes care of herself. I think that’s pretty self-explanatory. While the requirement is not stated in as exacting terms such as, “stays in shape, limited PMS days, loves to debate without making it personal, doesn’t mind getting dirty in all senses of the word, smiles, etc.” (Notice how cup-size never really comes into play) they still exist in the unspoken sense.
When you see a seemingly beautiful women cycling through boyfriends, it’s usually because of a failure to meet one of those “must haves for a long term.” The bottom line here is that men generally have ideals that many can achieve. They rarely exhibit restrictions based on an innate quality like that of “must be average height or more.”
Online dating sites eventually fill up with the stereotypical “angry leftovers.” That is yet another reason that ALL men, not just the “shorter than average” men just meet real women in the outside world. Heck you get to see, hear and breathe in their heavenly scent in the real world. Why the heck would someone bother with the warped world of Internet dating?
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Plus, I’m still convinced that, even if people with ugly facial features don’t get their messages filtered, they still get all their messages ignored as soon as people see their pictures, which is pretty much the same thing. They are not actally given a chance, just the pretence of one.
Response:
I know this one is hard to believe, but some mutt with a six-pack will get results. I can’t say it’s easy to get a six-pack, but it can be done. Then again, some 5-2 guy with a six-pack may even achieve results (if the heightist’s actually didn’t block them, they’d be in on it too.)
In the real world, some mutt with a keg size belly but a 6-figure income will have results too.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Now, I never said the reason why I believe ‘publi’ and ‘private’ discriination are different is because one is illegal; I said illegal/immoral (meaning immoral, therefore it had some sense making it illegal).
Response:
Juls, Juls, Juls. My cute little blog opponent. You __DID__ base an argument on exactly that on, July 13, 2012 at 3:48 am:
“I didn’t make the comparison with employment because I belIeve romantic rejection hurts less, but because it is illegal/ immoral to discriminate on looks in the hiring procss, while it is normal and welcome (who would want to be with someone that finds them sexually. unappealing) in dating.”
As I had initially pointed out, a lot of people think there is a difference because the state (the government) has stepped in and created laws in attempt to address one but not the other. However, this artificial distinction doesn’t mitigate the tort (excuse the wrongdoing). Furthermore, many laws really amount to window-dressing (as in they have little bite in practice) and the behaviours they mean to curtail carry on as if no laws existed.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Certainly what we find beautiful and attractive doesn’t happen in a vacuum, it is also influenced by other types of actually prejudiced discrimination. I think it would be more reasonable to actively fight those and I’m sure it will also effect ‘subconscious discriminations’ to a degree.
Response:
Height discrimination is a manifestation of projected low self-esteem. In that way, the exposure of it actually goes a long way towards fighting discrimination in general. The issue has to be thrown back at those who harbour it.
The progression of the movement is much like the ones we are more familiar with. It’s all about awareness in these early stages. Just like anti-racism campaigns in the past, anti-heightism is ridiculed in attempts to keep it in the dark. Heightists like the status quo. Why not, it doesn’t hurt them, and, in their minds, has the added bonus of perhaps “eliminating” short men from the gene pool.
The roots of it are really not as subconscious as heightist would like people to believe. The discrimination is VERY much deliberate and open. Some heightists are wholly __PROUD__ to be a card-carrying member of the “I hate shorter than average men” club. “Rosa” is probably the club president.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
In my experience, my social group, I haven’t actually found true that the preference for tall me is so visible. maybe it is most girls’ ideal, if they were to draw prince charming on a piece of paper, but in reality most of the shorter guys I know do pretty well. And these are not people who pride themselves with being politically correct, artists usually don’t have a problem with admitting their appreciation of beauty (or what they perceiv as such).
Response:
That is a good point.
In real life, where those who are not winning at the attraction game fear to tread (we are not talking about the shorter than average men here), women are far more approachable than online. It is more prevalent in North America because of how relatively strong the media influence is here on the particularly impressionable.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Probably in a much more artificial and calculated setting, it is hard to bring to life all of those nuances that make your beauty requirements often disappear.
Response:
As we have said before, the online environment offers instant escape from retribution. This caters to people who harbour a lot of hostility. In the case of online dating, the women who are out-competed will settle into their nests on dating sites and be as picky as they assume their competition was in the outside world.
It could be that one tends to find beauty in more things upon more exposure. It’s like people who have never tried certain cuisine and thinking that it just can’t be good: until they try it.
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
But still, I’m still not convinced the opposite makes anyone superficial or unworthy, if their motives are reasonable.
Think of wanting to take a holiday in the country, you’re going to pick the french estate you find gorgeous, even all funcionalities being equal, over the house somewhere in Ucraine, where you don’t like the view around you at all, if you can afford it. You want to be somewhere beautiful, you want to like what you see.
Now, the reason why you find blossoming praires more appealling than shurbs is certainly not innate, it is a social construct none the less, and it is not the fault of the ucrainian people if they were not blessed with landscapes that are seen as beautiful. Most people, and us society as a whole find flowers pretty because of history, art, the media, the season of the year we subconsciouly associate them with and a million other things, it is not an indipendent innate feeling, we don’t come from mars. But it is still a legitimate desire to go to france.
Now, if you actually fancy both landascapes you simply don’t consider ucrain because you are (consciously) convinced that shurbs smell bad when it is not true or you simply want to show your dumb friends piture of your ‘cool’ holiday, we would agree on that person being prejudiced/ 15. And if I were you I would make my own requirement not to date such people.
Response:
Your example doesn’t apply because the intentional differences between a French Estate and a house in the Ukraine span FAR BEYOND a single vector. Essentially, the factors that separate the two in respects to a vacation experience are too much in favour of the one and not of the other. The relative desirability of all the attributes you touch upon stack the odds and make the decision not merely based on whether the country was this name or that.
To be a closer comparison would be to suggest two holiday locations, both in the Loire Valley, but one has been the subject of 10 romance movies, while the other has been in 12. That’s a single attribute that doesn’t affect other attributes, and can be construed to mean that it’s “more desirable” based on the opinion of the media. Both estates are equally well appointed, but one is more popular for filming movies. That is all. Remember, whether a man is 5-9 or 6-0 doesn’t determine any other attribute that counts. Also, don’t be making the decision based on a better chance of seeing a movie star because that is taking the example out-of-context.
Ironically, your example betrays the way heightists feel about the taller-than-average man versus the shorter-than-average man: that a single attribute determines a whole host of other unconnected attributes that favour one and not the other. Can you see how you biased your example without even realizing it?
Juls says:
July 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm
But I don’t think this describes most peope who find short men (or anything else) unattractive, people’s reason for their idea of beauty is subconscious and highly complex. So if what we’re talking about are motives, I don’t think most people can be blamed for them. And mostly I don’t think the most private thing there is in someone’s life in where it is right/functional to start a fight agast discriination.
Response:
Actually it did. It showed that based on a single innocuous attribute (in your example the name of the country where the destination was) all sorts of other attributes were predetermined. A taller-than-average man isn’t the French Country side to a shorter-man’s Steppe Farmhouse. In reality, they can both be one or the other, or something in between. Think hard about this one.
The very nature of height discrimination being a social injustice is good enough of a reason to expose it for the ugliness that it is. How intimate it is to one’s feelings about oneself is more reason to take issue with it. Essentially heightists deal with their own feelings of inadequacy by harbouring revulsion for a group that is visibly marginalized. How is that any different than how ethnic or gender intolerance infects the psyche?
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@everybody
The very nature of height discrimination being a social injustice is good enough of a reason to expose it for the ugliness that it is. How intimate it is to one’s feelings about oneself is more reason to take issue with it. Essentially heightists deal with their own feelings of inadequacy by harbouring revulsion for a group that is visibly marginalized. How is that any different than how ethnic or gender intolerance infects the psyche?
@Kylie
Kylie says:
July 19, 2012 at 4:53 am
See though tall women are rare so men are not on the “lookout”for us. When we come up that’s when we freak guys out. No guys probably “exclude” girls with anything rare because they are not thinking of randomness.
Response:
See what? The story that “I’m tall and I have met men who have said ‘You’d be perfect/ pretty/ hot IF you were shorter/not so tall/ smaller’ ”?
Come on. Seriously. Do you think that someone would actually state those reasons, so clearly, in person? No. Most men (if not all people) would avoid the confrontation. They would give all sorts of other excuses to disengage. It is very dubious to think that men would be so tactless (outside of a man-haters fantasy of course.) It’s usually pretty obvious when evidence is conjured or embellished to support a doubtful assertion.
As we have mentioned, in person, in __REALITY__, men will just avoid the subject if they were not interested.
Check out the accounts of the shorter guys on this thread. In the real world, they hear about the real reasons indirectly. Those are more like what really happens. If you are thinking that, “well, women aren’t afraid to tell it straight to a guys face”, in the case of men directly being told they are “too short”: look at the situations when that happens. It’s usually when the woman is travelling in the “pack”, hence they feel safe from confrontation (much like how heightists feel bolder in the relative safety of cyberspace.)
Kylie says:
July 19, 2012 at 4:53 am
I mean I know some men wouldn’t like a dwarf but that’s not excluded either (I think men secretly like dwarves though so its not a fair comparison).
Response:
The use of pejoratives like “dwarf” betrays a clear animosity towards women of more petite stature. If one has an agenda, one tends to “cherry pick” information to squeeze out any support for their claims. Practically every guy on this thread has clearly stated that they have no issues with taller or taller-than-average women. Taller women DO NOT have anywhere the challenges that shorter-than-average men do in the dating game. “BBW”s? Sure, but the mitigations around that has already been covered.
Kylie says:
July 19, 2012 at 4:53 am
The men on this don’t get that in real life their not that excluded. In real life tall women are. See…
Response:
They are excluded in “real life” too (this thread is full of stories relating this). Just not as much as in the online scene.
As it has been suggested to all who are waging this campaign of harassment: If you truly feel that strongly about the marginalizing of taller-than-average women, then start a blog. So far none of these “empathizers” have answered the challenge of showing how taller women have been shunned in the online dating arena at the same level and intensity as shorter-than-average men.
@Kylie
Kylie says:
“Women vs. Short Guys: Dating’s Fiercest Battleground” July 21, 2012 at 7:08 am
Men do say things like “if you were shorter you’d be hot”. They do. I’m just going to tell you.
Response:
That a bit of a disambiguation as no one was saying that men “never” say such things. What WAS said was that it is rare that a man will tell the real reasons why they are rejecting someone when confronted “in person”. Even so, the challenge of finding an equal amount of men stating that they won’t consider taller-than-average women goes unanswered. All we get are the usual straw man responses.
Kylie says:
“Women vs. Short Guys: Dating’s Fiercest Battleground” July 21, 2012 at 7:08 am
If I start a blog about tall women people will ignore it because A: it’s a rare condition B: tall women often can’t admit it’s hard C: shorten are actually pissed at their counterparts as are tall women.
Response:
It may or may not be ignored, however it won’t be for your “reasons”. Here is why:
__A__ “It’s a rare condition”. WRONG. The condition is no more rare than that of shorter-than-average men. The bell curve distribution of height would be the same.
__B__ “Tall women often can’t admit it’s hard”. WRONG. If many “tall women” can come to a blog about “shorter-than-average” men and repeatedly claim it is equally as difficult (when it isn’t) it is doubtful that they are suffering in silence. If the truth is that it’s just one woman (who may be more than just “tall”) pretending to be many, then there isn’t any evidence either way.
__C__ “Shorten are actually pissed at their counterparts as are tall women.” WRONG. Shorter men bear no animosity towards taller men. If anything, this is the PROJECTION of the ill-will that is harboured in those that take the effort to harass others.
The truth is that such blogs probably exist but are not worth visiting if one’s agenda is just to harass other marginalized groups.
Kylie says:
“Women vs. Short Guys: Dating’s Fiercest Battleground” July 21, 2012 at 7:08 am
By dwarves I don’t mean short women I mean dwarves… Men have spinner fantasies about literal migets & dwarves (you know you do). I’m not just whining about snookies. Imagine being tall & no one short or tall fantasizes about you..
Response:
Lol. So which is it? Is it Achondroplasia, proportional dwarfism or some other extremely rare condition?
“Snooki” is 57 inches tall and could be deemed as a proportional dwarf and therefore derisively known as a “midget”. “Spinner” merely refers to petite women and as such is more a relative term than anything else. While there is no doubt that a segment of the male populace will have fantasies regarding all of those rare conditions, such a segment cannot represent the far larger portion that doesn’t.
Again, the responses here from men (tall, average and short) do not have any issue with taller women. Check around you will find there are even those that have a fetish for “BBW’s. Your allegation that “no one short or tall fantasizes about you” is unsupported.
“I am sick and tired of short men approaching me thinking that because I’m a short girl, I like short guys. I HATE SHORT GUYS! Just because I’m short doesn’t mean I don’t prefer the tall, dark, and handsome guys like the rest of us women. I really wish all men shorter than 6’2″ should be rounded up and shot.”
Gawd lady Were not effin talking a guy that is 5′ tall (YOU) idiot, SHALLOW LADIES… What men are flaming PIS*ED with is single SHORT women like in range of 5’1″ to like 5’5″ or 5’6″ and are so effin adamant that under NO effin circumstances she will ONLY effin ONLY ever date a guy that is MINIMUM 6′ and over… There are PLENTY of “tall” guys that will still be effin TALLER than you at 5’9″, 5’10″ISH. Women that have this SUCH STRICT, DOWNRIGHT DEMANDING “LIST”, “REQUIREMENTS” are totally SCR*WED even with the so “tall” guys she wants because they have that such sh*tty, condescending, nose up in the effin air, “I’m all that”, I’m “Ms. Perfect” attitude and those “tall guys” she so desperately wants doesn’t want jack sh*t to do with you cause of your jacked up attitude and effin “demanding” 70 page “requirements”. Get OVER YOURSELF!!! Your not in HIGH SCHOOL anymore, your a grown a** women and it’s HIGH time to GROW the EFF up act like a effin LADY, not a little GIRL. Quit, just STOP “DEMANDING” his “height” that he obviously has no control over. AGAIN WERE NOT EFFIN SAYING DATE THE GUY SO MUCH SHORTER THAN YOU, BUT DATE WITHIN “REASON” FOR YOU SHORT WOMEN DATE 5’9″, 5’10” GUYS. Just get over your 6′ ++ oh so TALLLLL guy!! You want to know why the eff you only get D-Bags, a**holes, guys that treat you like complete sh*t, cause you have WAYYYYY TO STRICT “REQUIREMENTS” that your only looking for this SUCH SPECIFIC GUY THAT MEETS THESE HUGE HUGE LISTS, THOSE GUYS DON’T EFFIN EXIST!!!!
What I was saying is most men short, average,tall .. like small women (fat actually seems preferred in the real world).. By small I mean short.
Dwarves, midgets, little people are a fantasy for many men.
Short women are universally preferred.
Women short,average and tall prefer tall men.
The extremely tall men prefer very short women. Short girls want giants.
Tall women (all races) & unusually short men (if they are white or black men) get left behind.
It sucks!
But I guess it’s best to accept it, aknowledge it & do the best you can in other areas of your life?
It doesn’t stop the sting though, does it?
@everyone
ROFL. Let’s see what typical deflections these harassers (or “a single” harasser pretending to be many) will bring up again.
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Detailed response:
@Kylie
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
What I was saying is most men short, average,tall .. like small women
Response:
LOL! No. You were trying to claim that men, in general had some sort of a secret fantasy for short women to the point of “the shorter the better, and that if a fetish for true dwarves existed, it would be proof of this.” It’s all part of this invented situation that “taller-than-average” women have it just as bad, but they aren’t complaining yet you have empathy (not). At any rate, it is not supported and is just a projection of how heightists behave.
To that point, having an affinity for one end of the spectrum does not directly translate to an abject aversion to the other end. In the case of taller-than-average women, there is every indication that men don’t have a problem with partnering with them. It has been seen on this thread, and has already been brought to your attention. In contrast, the level at which the shorter-than-average man is vilified and segregated from the potential dating pool is significant.
Again, men generally don’t pay much attention to the height of a woman (definitely not to the extent of exhibited by women who restrict applicants by height.) Even if men, in general, had an affinity for women skewed more towards shorter-than-average, it has never been in question since we have rarely (if ever) seen them do it to a point of a “restriction.”
Furthermore, you have clearly contradicted yourself in “what you were saying”:
Kylie said on July 21, 2012 at 7:08 am, “By dwarves I don’t mean short women I mean dwarves” in reference to, you saying, on July 19, 2012 at 4:53 am, “I think men secretly like dwarves”. Yet you go on to say now, that, “What I was saying is most men short, average,tall .. like small women” and qualifying that with, “By small I mean short”.
Apparently you mean that men, in general, “like dwarves” in the definitive sense when it suits your argument, but in the relative sense when it doesn’t, or, vice-versa. Of course, now you are claiming that they all, in general, love “the shorter the better” to cover all angles. It’s an evolving supporting assertion like the others we have seen here, grows steadily more ludicrous as one tries to back a false position.
The __TRUTH__ is that men rarely exclude taller-than-average women from candidacy, while a notable number of women will exclude shorter-than-average men (especially online). NONE of your “arguments” have countered this observation. As such, these false reasons are nothing more than a campaign of propaganda to minimize the marginalizing of shorter-than-average men in the dating world.
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
(fat actually seems preferred in the real world).
Response:
It should be noted that “preferred”, in context, means that there is a relative affinity to towards it in comparison to away from it. Really? There is a preference for higher-than-healthy BMI? This “seems” to be in complete opposition to how most men feel about it. While there may be a fetish, the bulk of men DO NOT exhibit this “preference.”
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
Dwarves, midgets, little people are a fantasy for many men.
Response:
There is no doubt that a group with an inclination for true dwarves may exist amongst the entire population of men. This may be “many” in total, but in percentage? No. This segment would be a very small slice of the whole man-pie. Hence this point is pretty Moot. Of course, it’s also a convenient excuse to slyly use derogatory terms like “dwarf” and “midget” in the conversation. That will neither steer any weight into your argument nor cow your opposition.
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
Short women are universally preferred.
Women short,average and tall prefer tall men.
The extremely tall men prefer very short women. Short girls want giants.
Response:
So? Even if these “affinities” were true, they are not warped into an abject aversion for the opposing type. Therefore, it isn’t an issue like what this thread is about. Heightists like to euphemize their restriction as a “preference”. Everybody else sees it as the prejudice that it is.
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
Tall women (all races) & unusually short men (if they are white or black men) get left behind. It sucks!
Response:
Relatively speaking taller-than-average women do not have anywhere the same issue as shorter-than-average men. This has been carefully explained in this thread. The challenge to point the audience to evidence that refutes this has been curiously ignored yet again. Instead you persist in constantly comparing the shorter-than-average man’s online dating problems to the problems faced by taller-than-average women and by implication that these women have the same magnitude and intensity of outcasting (which they clearly do not).
Furthermore, your “excuses” for not starting a blog on the challenges in online dating for taller-than-average women have already been debunked. Hence, there is still no reason why you aren’t creating such a forum if you feel so strongly (“It sucks”) about the challenges faced by “taller-than-average” women.
However, please continue: There is no greater proof of the assertion that “some so loath shorter-than-average men that they will go out of their way to harass them” than to actually witness them doing just that.
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
But I guess it’s best to accept it, aknowledge it & do the best you can in other areas of your life?
Response:
Acknowledge it? It is clearly acknowledged and that is well emphasized by those opposing the bigotry.
Doing the best you can in other areas of your life? Who is to say that people (regardless of whether they are male, female, short, tall, average, green, purple, etc…) are not already doing that regardless of their situation? If one is thinking that time spent here is better spend elsewhere, that wouldn’t be so in the case of exposing prejudice and it’s promoters. However, in the case of harassing others, it would be.
But, accept it? __WRONG__.
In respects to the prejudice of heightism, and all prejudice for that matter, ACCEPTANCE of the prejudice is what the bigot wants. Neither the victim nor those that want to create a better society want this kind of dogmatist’s dream. Status quo is never the right approach to social tort. It is the very exposure of the ugliness of prejudice that supporters of it want to suppress. Why do you think they constantly try to “shame” those who protest into silence?
Let’s see. Practically every false reason one has attempted to use as support has been debunked. Perhaps one should take the advice to “accept it, acknowledge it and do the best one can in other areas of one’s life”. Here are a few suggestions:
__A__ Start a blog about the challenges of taller-than-average women in the dating game.
__B__ Admit that being taller-than-average as a women may not be the real issue if one has to invent “excuses” to justify it.
__C__ Understanding that bullying* is never a solution to a poor self-image.
* Yes. Bullying includes harassment by constantly posting the same old debunked excuses and deflections.
Kylie says:
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 am
It doesn’t stop the sting though, does it?
Response:
Lol. It’s more like one is trying to induce more “sting” by harassment.
Sorry, but I wouldn’t directly know this sting. I suppose I could create an online profile on a dating site and pretend to be an “unusually” shorter-than-average guy, sit around for no responses, and attempt to feel it directly. But why? I could just read the posts from the gentlemen here. In so doing I could then help by exposing how some will even attempt to bully them into silence as well as ask them to just “accept” the prejudice.
Of course, your question is insincere rhetoric. Why? It’s because if one were truly empathetic about the pain of being marginalized, they wouldn’t continue to badger those that are so affected. In fact, this is just trying to draw attention to the wound.
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@everyone
ROFL. Let’s see what typical deflections these harassers (or “a single” harasser pretending to be many) will bring up again.
There are so many things that make dating hard. Some are lucky, some are not. People need to be nice to one another and accept and understand that differences are not tolerated & cause pain, loneliness and unhappiness. I’m a lonely woman & it is what is.
Check out “exposing heightism” on twitter. Mostly young teenaged or 20ish black girls with serious hatred for short guys. Some white girls as well. Pretty scary stuff almost to the point of disturbing actually. This doesn’t surprise me at all because most black girls only date NBA caliber guys in terms of height. Makes sense that a lot of them are single too. Some have two, three or four kids from two, three or four different daddies.
Short guys, beware of these women! Seriously! Some turn 180 degrees and soon enough will have all the love they can give you when they reach mid to late 30s. Moreso if they are single and available. Why? No decent tall guy they so richly desire wants them anymore. Their breasts descend to knee level or lower, cellulite is free and welcomed, and their eggs start drying up. In fact, some of these women believe that they are doing short guys a favour by NOW including us in their lives and giving us a chance. NO THANK-YOU!!!
I rarely look at young black women. They are practically non-existent in my world and that’s fine and dandy by me. They don’t even look my way to begin with. Not all of them are as ignorant and delusional as the ones on twitter but most of them have no use for guys under 6’0. Even 6’0 is too short for a lot of these women. 6’3 seems to be the prefered minimum LMAOL!!
Sometimes I don’t know who’s worse. Short black women or tall black women. I can say from experience that short black women can be really loud, aggressive and mean because they hate it when short guys who approach them think they have a better chance with them because they are closer in height. Tall black women usually just laugh at short guys who try and they can be as blunt as a board in expressing their genuine distaste for us. That’s OK too. I’ve seen more beastly looking tall black women who are closer to offensive tackle status that I wouldn’t go near even if I was lineman size myself. It think it makes sense that they demand tall guys too. Her less than stellar looks stand out a lot more when she’s with a shorter guy.
See but you are truly attracted to the pint size black girls not the tall ones. Us tall girls know we are not choice #1 & so yes we’re resentful & occasionally mean. Being “better than nothing” isn’t really first choice by tall girls & so our animosity shows!
Oh & I’m a white girl so maybe it doesn’t apply? But I often am attracted to black men. Off topic.
Wrong Kylie. So very, very wrong!
I was teased bigtime in my youth for my affinity for taller girls. Honestly, I will say that I lied to myself early on about being attracted to taller/larger women. It had absolutely, positively, nothing to do with me trying to keep with the status quo, or following social trends. I couldn’t understand my attraction to them, but at the same time, having a shorter girlfiend like the rest of the guys was so not important to me. It had more to do with the tall girl rejecting me and saving myself from the embarrassment of being laughed at by her. Tall women are known very well to make fun of short guys who have the guts to approach them. I was always encouraged by those around me, whether it was family or friends, to date women my height or better yet shorter than me. Their concerns for my best interests meant that I should avoid fighting the losing battles in trying to date taller women. Tall girls don’t normally go for short guys, and I was constantly told it was a waste of time for me to try. I didn’t care though. I was never disuaded from asking out a girl who stood 4, 5, 6 or 7 inches taller than me. You learn to deal with rejection quickly in life if you’re a short guy. She could be well over 6’0 to my 5’6 and it never bothered me. Why? Taller women turn me on. Always have, always will. Plain and simple. Only thing is that it hasn’t been easy to deal with in life. Society tends to brand short guys as freaks or fetish pervs if you’re attracted to giant sized women. A lot of tall women feel the same way about short men and get creeped out rather quickly when the little guy approaches. I’ve only been lucky once in my life to have casually dated a 6’1 hotty and I would definitely do it again and go taller. We’re still friends, but she had issues being 7 inches taller than me. Mostly from her friends and parents who pressured her into finding a man more compatible with her size. She couldn’t deal with it and I know she misses me. And, I might add, she was white, curvy and very pretty. So there you go. Race was never an issue. The only tall women I don’t approach are the really fat ones or lazy tall ladies who pay no attention to proper diet and exercise. Besides, big, fat, tall girls rarely go for smaller guys who weigh less than they do. They prefer really big guys to avoid public harrassment and so they don’t feel as gigantic next to them.
Oh man the comment list just keeps getting better and better. For all intents and purposes I’m a short guy. 5 feet 2 inches to be exact. My mother is 4 foot 11 inches and my father is very slightly shorter than me at about 5 feet 1 and a half inches. (The distinction is made in our medical records.) I live in a town where most people are WASPs so I pretty much look like a child to them at their 5 foot 9 inches thing. Weirdly enough though, I used to go to a high school where there were enough Asians like me (Including the gamut of heights above and below mine) to date. I’m not going to give a sob story about my life, because that’s just detracting from the subject here.
In High School, I’ve observed that the short guys are usually passed up for taller guys. Now you maybe thinking of these girls as being shallow and whatnot. The thing was… I WAS FRIENDS WITH THOSE GIRLS. (Not “Friendzone” thats a different story.) Here are their beautiful remarks (And some personal commentary):
1. He’s like a teddy bear, hes so huggable and stuff.
Apparently short guys are the Ken Doll from Barbie without the Barbie to be with him.
2. It’s weird being seen with a short guy. (Said by a girl who’s 5’1″.)
When she said that, I had to resist the urge to smack her upside the head for two reasons. One: People thought we made a good couple, and she agreed to some extent except for the whole “like a brother thing” (I agreed with her.). Two: Note my height. Sigh.
3. Short guys just don’t look manly.
I thought about this for a little while because it was so mind boggling. I mean my own father was the epitome of man personally; The guy was 68 and he routinely beat my buffed up cousins at arm wrestling and still did construction work on top of his part time job!!
I might be rambling on here, but there’s something definitely against shorter guys. I’ve felt it personally, and I’m shorter than the 5’6″ guys who feel bad, but its not bad to be short if you can play it right.
The girls you want to date will love your personality. They don’t give a damn if you’re shorter than them if they wear heels and etc. Also, it helps to just take them as they go. Kind of helps the confidence if you always think that this time its gonna work.
Funny thing I’ve noticed is that I’m much more noticeable when I’m not worrying what other people think and I just do it. Its kinda weird, but when people can sense when someone is hung up on something.
Shortness is a flaw really, but its not a flaw that people notice until one shines a bright light on it with ones attitude and preconceived notion of every person being the same.
Maybe I’m being patronizing here. But I like to think of it as just stuff I’ve learned when you’re pretty much the shortest guy in school. I had those hangups in middle school, but then I realized I was more than my height about halfway through high school. It made me a whole lot happier when I wasn’t trying to get girls, and just living life how I liked.
Just my two cents.
Why all the derision and anger ladies. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! The swinging and cuckold cultures are in rise across this country. You could saddle a successful short guy with a relationship (NOT giving him any sex or affection mind you – just use him for his money and status). Then you can turn around and cheat on him with a REAL MAN, a 6’2″ stud who has superior genes.
This lifestyle is in rapid increase, so why can’t you take advantage short ladies? Become a vile succubus to a hard working short man, and then force him down into submission, cheating on him, cuckolding him (EVEN in front of him most of the time). Then have those SUPERIOR taller studs impregnate you to ensure your offspring is superior to their pathetic short father, and force this pip-squeak to raise these children whilst you still have your fun with taller REAL MEN well into your fifties.
What is wrong with that? No short guy would dare question you… they wouldn’t want to risk losing the smallest possibility of sex (that you will rightfully NEVER give up to them). They’ll take all the shit in the world for you ladies.
Short men aren’t really men anyways… I should know, I am one… so why not just use them like the tools they are?
I have no problem with dating really short guys. Or average ones, tall ones, fat, thin, bald whatever. There a lot of different types I find cute, handsome, interesting, etc. As far as I’m concerned date-wise, not being hideously boring is waaaay more important than height.
I’ve read the article and 90% of the posts. Normally I don’t comment, but after reading some of the posts, I wanted to offer some encouragement to my vertically challenged brothers, and to the ladies who fell marginalized because of their height. I do understand the frustration that many are feeling, I’ve been there. However I’m here to tell you that all is not lost. I kind of bounce around in this post, though hopefully I can offer some insight, and encouragement.
First some Fun facts: The average height of the US male population – 5′-9″, US males 6′-0″ or over 14 1/2 % of the population, US males 6′-2″ and over 3.9% of the population. If you do the math and realize how many women are waiting on the six foot and up prince charming…well, I hope they aren’t holding their breath…
…a couple of other things to ponder… the princesses who want the NBA or jock type (yeah, like they have a chance) evidently they don’t notice the quality of women these guys end up with. For the most part, the women they choose are uber-successful themselves, and don’t need a man to provide them with their dream life. The have beauty, brains, and ambition…they aren’t hood ornaments…
…one other thing, if you ever watch Formula 1 Racing (one of the most elite sports in the world), notice the drivers aren’t exactly NBA material. However, the women they are with are all 10’s, and tower over them…
…I could go on but hopefully you get the idea…
…now, some hard and fast facts from the world of academic research…
…According to Dr. David M. Buss PhD, when it comes to mate selection, “we are going to end up with someone similar to us in almost every variable.” Dr. Buss is a professor of psychology at The University of Texas at Austin. He is considered the leading expert in the field of evolutionary psychology research on human sex differences in mate selection.
He has conducted many studies over the years with the largest having included over 10,000 subjects from across six continents and island nations. All in the name of finding if there was a global similarity in human mating preferences. And guess what? There was. The research showed that human mate selection among men and women has little to do with race or culture and everything to do with being a man or women. So take heart my vertically challenged brothers, there is hope for us.
Here are some interesting findings that turned up in the good Doctor’s research. For starters, as a whole the “TOP TEN CHARACTERISTIC’S “ valued in a mate by both men and women are as follows:
1-Good Companion
2-Considerate
3-Honest
4-Affectionate
5-Dependable
6-Intelligent
7-Kind
8-Understanding
9-Interesting to Talk To
10-Loyal
Remember the list above constitutes the TOP TEN CHARACTERISTICS both men and women seek in a mate.
Believe it or not, the following list shows what men and women find the least desirable characteristics in a mate (pay special attention to traits 6 & 7):
1-Wants a Large Family
2-Dominant
3-Agnostic In Religious Matters
4-Night Owl
5-Early Riser
6-Tall
7-Wealthy
How about that, TALL and WEALTHY are on the bottom of the combined list of characteristics that men and women find least desirable.
However, here are the top characteristics (in order) in mate selection women tended to prefer:
1- Considerate
2- Honest
3- Dependable
4- Kind
5- Understanding
6- Fond of Children
7- Well Liked by Others
8- Good Earning Capacity
9- Ambitious and Career Oriented
10- Good family Background
11- Tall
Yeah, tall is there, but as you can see, it’s at the bottom of the list, and was that negligible, that it’s not given weight in the research. From personal experience as a vertically challenged individual, I can tell you that if you have the majority of the first ten desirable characteristics that women tended to prefer, you have a pretty fair chance attracting a “good” woman. You can read the entire paper here: http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/prefs_mate_selection_1986_jpsp.pdf
Let’s face it, we all have preferences. I know I do. In fact many of my friends always said that I only wanted to have relationships with, as they put it, “Movie Star Types,” and they were right. That’s my preference, and those were the women I dated. I’ve been involved with women who were shorter than me. Some were my height, and quite a few were taller than I am, that, I might add, loved to wear their heels. In fact, I had one woman I met online fly 3,000 miles to meet me. That relationship lasted 3 years. We saw one another every month, and were up engaged. And by the way, she would “never” date, and had never dated anyone under six feet (a hard and fast rule of her’s)…until she met me. Plus I’m a white and have a “preference” for African American Women. I’m just an average guy, and believe me I know it’s a little more challenging for us, but it’s doable, very doable.
Here’s a little advice, be a leader not a follower. Have respect for yourself and others will respect you (never demand respect, command it). Be honest, and let your word be your bond. Be friendly, have a kind word for others, and put a smile on your face (let people know you love yourself and life). Pursue everything in your life with passion, and I mean everything. And finally, people always say be yourself, no, be the best self you can be.
Oh, and if you haven’t read “THE GAME” by Neil Strauss, by all means do pick it and read it. The guy is 5’-6” and bald, and the NUMBER 1 pickup artist in the world! Trust me, this book is inspirational, and loaded with lessons.
I just want to say a word about females who say that every male under the height of 6’ should be eradicated from the face of the earth. . It’s actually disturbing that these people have the capability to reproduce. Just realize this is a member of the lunatic fringe. Unfortunately, we can’t take all females, and males who have this type of cognitive deficiency and put them in a place that has padded cells and is surrounded by a high wall. Don’t waste your time or your energy on these sorry individuals’, it’s really not worth the effort.
Finally, the online dating thing…It’s almost ten years since I’ve dated someone that I didn’t meet on line. I personally like it, and think it’s a pretty good way to meet people. However, stay away from the free sites. Anything that crawled out from under a rock and wanted to do the online dating thing is on the free sites. Stick to the pay sites, that alone helps to filter out some of the lunatics. The other thing, just remember that online dating is like going to a yard sales, there are a lot of worn-out and broken items there that are past their prime and can’t be fixed, but every now and then, if you search long enough, you find a real prize. Just keep in mind, online dating is a numbers thing. There are some really good people who are attracted to substance.
I’m tall 6’3, my wife is 6. She was the one who insisted I comment here. The things I’m going to tell you
A. Tall women are hot, I like to look in your eyes, squeeze you, plus seeing you you on your knees is powerful. Ok I wasn’t supposed to share that.
B. Women want to know how hot they are. If your short & like a taller girl, tell her.
C. Being tall (&malw)you still get passed up at times even for men shorter than you.
I’m one of those chicks my friends thought was strange… while they were always pining over 6ft+, skinny guys, I’ve ALWAYS liked mine short, dark and ripped. I’m 5’6″ and have always wished I were shorter (my affinity for guys 5’4″ to 5’9″ can make wearing heels difficult). When looking for a man, looks go a very long way (if I’m not sexually attracted to you, there’s no point in pursuing), but luckily for the Napoleons out there, there’s not much of a height requirement here :)
See to me you are a short girl. You wish you were shorter to wear heels with men imagine yourself in flats not even being a consideration no matter how otherwise attractive or ugly.
Imagine not being considered on line and certainly in person.
I actually get men online saying they don’t care about height because they have never encountered a female like me but trust me they care.
I’m a girl. I’m 17. My brothers are 20 & 15 6’2 & 6’4 and the 15 year old is the 6’4. They live awesome lives. Girls love them. My younger brother has the worst acne of all time & girls still go crazy for him they are both smart & play sports. My parents did a good job having them. I’m 6′ and female for to be this way at 12. I have no friends, never had a kiss, never been good at sports, I hate volleyball and basketball. I like to do girly things. I can’t though. I would like to be a mom. I would like to be kissed. I would like to wear pretty clothes. I would like to be a normal girl. The truth is I can not live a normal life. I work hard and get good grades. I have a scholarships available to two good schools but I’m thinking of not going and just keeping my part time sales job and going to a community college because I don’t want any more stigma that I think I would find more of. Good luck to anyone who has had lived without joy because of height or appearance. We are all children of god.
@ Kylie, Rylee whatever name-ly you use-ly this time-ly
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
I’m a girl. I’m 17. My brothers are 20 & 15 6’2 & 6’4 and the 15 year old is the 6’4. They live awesome lives. Girls love them. My younger brother has the worst acne of all time & girls still go crazy for him they are both smart & play sports. My parents did a good job having them.
Response:
Lol. Same old story again. “I’m a tall teenage girl with two tall teenage brothers”. This is nothing more than the usual attempt to hijack the thread. You still haven’t answered the challenge to find a similar magnitude and frequency of height discrimination against taller women (online or off-line.)
It should be noted that being smart or playing sports is not tied to one’s height. Also, parents do the same “job” having children of any height. Being so proud of this betrays an irrational affinity for taller men (a very “heightist” attitude.)
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
I’m 6′ and female for to be this way at 12.
Response:
It has already been pointed out in this blog-thread that a woman being 6’ at 12 years of age is extremely rare. Furthermore, it was shown that a female would continue to grow taller by several inches after that age (readers are encouraged to search for this on this page.) Your stories are so outlandish now that they only serve to betray insincerity in this continue campaign of harassment.
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
I have no friends, never had a kiss, never been good at sports, I hate volleyball and basketball.
Response:
All of these things are well within your control and really have no relevance to the topic. Also, they are not particularly dependant on the height of your latest invented character. Being good at sports or liking a particular sport is not devastating to a woman’s ability to attract men.
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
I like to do girly things. I can’t though. I would like to be a mom. I would like to be kissed. I would like to wear pretty clothes. I would like to be a normal girl. The truth is I can not live a normal life.
Response:
Who is holding you against your will to do “girly things”? You are 17. How many 17 year old’s are “mom’s”? The kisses come easy if one isn’t online pretending to be yet another 98-th percentile taller-than-average height female. As far as we have seen, they make “pretty clothes” for models (and they are all about the height of your invented teenager.)
The __TRUTH__ is that if one is continually coming back to harass people with a genuine problem this way, there are serious self-esteem issues at play. There IS professional help available.
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
I work hard and get good grades. I have a scholarships available to two good schools but I’m thinking of not going and just keeping my part time sales job and going to a community college because I don’t want any more stigma that I think I would find more of.
Response:
These good grades you speak of can’t be translating into true cognitive skills if one thinks that other well-educated individuals would be more likely to promote the stigmas that you are over-inflating here. Of course, all of this academic achievement is probably as fantastical as the rest of your stories.
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
Good luck to anyone who has had lived without joy because of height or appearance.
Response:
Most (if not all) of these shorter-than-average men responding here want pity in any form. If anything, they probably like seeing the bullies being called out for what they are.
As it has been said before, height is involuntary, immutable and no real reflection on a person’s abilities. To equate it to general “appearance” is trying to disambiguate it into a broader spectrum of traits that are voluntary, mutable and a true reflection of a person’s lifestyle and capability. This is something a lot of people who cause their own problems like to do.
Rylee H says:
September 9, 2012 at 5:36 am
We are all children of god.
Response:
On the surface, this looks like a comforting comment. However, it only is that way if the rest of one’s comments offer the same solace (which they do not.) In that context, it is really quite patronizing.
While there is nothing one can do about one’s height (or the height of others) there is much we can all do to shape the attitudes of people in general. If you want to promote this “taller-than-average women have it equally as challenging” you should provide some evidence that the negative experience is of the same magnitude and frequency. You have NOT done so in any of your curiously similar characters.
Please try again. R-O-F-L-M-A-O.
Yo, Feet Still Touching the Ground…what gives. Thread hijacking? Here’s a human being who is writing how they are tormented by a physical impediment they have no control over, and you’re going off on this person with some bullsh!t facts and findings nonsense. Do you know this person? Have you ever seen her? Have you ever spoken to her? I’ll venture a wild guess that you haven’t, which means your commentary has no merit. Spend some time researching what empathy is, and then try to develop it.
Your problem isn’t being discriminated against because of your height. It’s because of your arrogance. You alienate people because of your horrible attitude. You give the rest of us who are vertically challenged a bad name. You have more in common with the people you rail against for height discrimination than you care to admit. You are the angry troll under the bridge. And might I add not only are your feet still touching the ground, but youy have your head up your a$$!!!
Here’s some advice, instead of spending hours writing the treatise you post on this site, spend it developing a personality. Spend a little more time going through your own bullsh!t than analyzing other peoples lives, you’ll be a happier person. Get a life. .
massimo88 says:
September 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Yo, Feet Still Touching the Ground…what gives. Thread hijacking? Here’s a human being who is writing how they are tormented by a physical impediment they have no control over, and you’re going off on this person with some bullsh!t facts and findings nonsense.
Response:
The similarity in both writing style and storyline between “Kylie”, “Rylee” and several other “sympathizers” is quite apparent. The poster is merely hiding behind the story to promote the usual “aren’t tall guys great” mantra. When someone (like myself) calls this out, there will always be some “here’s my chance to be a hero” sympathizer who is quick to “ride in and save the damsel in distress.” Furthermore, if you have read “90%” of this thread, you will see how often this “Rylee” comes here to put up the same old story (with slight variations of course.)
If you feel the facts used to support my claims (most if not all come with links to reliable sources) are “bull excrement”, please provide some evidence of this. If not, you are merely speaking out of emotion and not with any substance.
The reason why that poster is being called out on “thread hijacking” has already been mentioned on numerous occasions.
massimo88 says:
September 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Do you know this person? Have you ever seen her? Have you ever spoken to her? I’ll venture a wild guess that you haven’t, which means your commentary has no merit. Spend some time researching what empathy is, and then try to develop it.
Response:
Lol! At the risk of sounding “arrogant”, this is quite the pedestrian defence.
Does one have to personally “know” or have physically met someone to know if his or her arguments are based on fallacy or fantasy? If your logic were correct, we could never form a reliable opinion of the motives or sincerity of people we have never met. Heck, she (or he) could say 1 + 1 = 7 and we could not say it was false… because we never met them. If someone says that they are Elvis today, and Oprah tomorrow… we have to take it as truth… because we have never spoken to this person. Please.
The profile that is developed on this person is based on the multitude of flaws in the stories he or she has presented (be it as one avatar or another). These flaws are carefully and concisely pointed out in previous posts.
Empathy? Empathy should not be given out liberally so that it loses value to those who truly deserve it. Try developing something? If any development were required, it would be in recognizing real trolling when it appears.
massimo88 says:
September 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Your problem isn’t being discriminated against because of your height. It’s because of your arrogance. You alienate people because of your horrible attitude. You give the rest of us who are vertically challenged a bad name.
Response:
Since I have neither directly mentioned nor alluded to any particular personal problem (and especially not that of alienation) this is just another straw man argument (of which you will accuse me of being arrogant in saying so. LOL)
As far as giving “the rest of the vertically challenged” a bad name, it more likely those who buy into studies that play into wishful thinking; those who cling to even clearly feigned sympathy; those who are quick to resort to ad hominem; being ones who smear the protagonists’ reputation. Even then, I have not mentioned my height, but apparently some can assume they “know” it (while inappropriately chastising others for knowing things that were clearly surrendered… go figure!) Furthermore, I could be 6-2 or 4-2… as far as my foundation on the critique of Kylie-Rylee-Any-other-Namee is concerned, it is NOT RELEVANT.
massimo88 says:
September 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm
You have more in common with the people you rail against for height discrimination than you care to admit. You are the angry troll under the bridge.
Response:
This is based on what?
While those who promote the status quo of height discrimination depend on falsehoods and conjured facts, I have carefully built my arguments on conscientious research. I have also been as transparent on my sources as possible. In absolute contrast, the hijackers have put up all sorts of false claims (which we have debunked on numerous occasions) and clearly invented scenarios (some of which are absolutely outlandish).
There is no similarity in conduct or content with these heightists whatsoever. Please back up your claims with some evidence.
Troll? Look up the definition.
massimo88 says:
September 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm
And might I add not only are your feet still touching the ground, but youy have your head up your a$$!!!
Response:
Sure. This really helps your credibility. I will let the audience at large decide which posters are viewing one’s own rectal lining in excruciating detail.
massimo88 says:
September 12, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Here’s some advice, instead of spending hours writing the treatise you post on this site, spend it developing a personality. Spend a little more time going through your own bullsh!t than analyzing other peoples lives, you’ll be a happier person. Get a life. .
Response:
Just as most of the “vertically challenged” men who view or post on this blog do not need “advice”, neither do I or anyone else need advice based on emotion and incomprehension rather than objective reasoning.
It is curious how you can determine another poster’s off-line personality (or lack of it) through only what they have written on a specific topic that doesn’t include any personal anecdote. This is in violation of your own assertion that without personally seeing or speaking with that poster, one cannot possibly know them. Can you tell us how this contradiction is valid?
Hmmm… Analysing others… interesting. Just as always, I’ll let others decide their own levels of analyses and introspection. Also, I’ll let others decide who harbours latent anger and who does not.
“Get a life”… lol. Another bit of misplaced advice. I already have one (both on and off line.) You would think that those who come back time and again to post the same invented stories to covertly promote heightism would be the ones who need to acquire a more meaningful existence. Oh well, everyone is welcome to their opinion.
Feet Still Touching the Ground…Dude, you really, really, need to get a life. Let me give you a little insight. As a former research assistant at a major university, the one thing I learned is this, you never, ever,ever,ever, assume anything, never. Yeah, yeah..I know…where do I get the audacity to offer you such advice? Simple, the professor who was the Principal Investigator for whom I worked for as a research assistant, worked with Jane Goodall in Africa for a year and half, not to shabby huh? So needless to say my pedigree, I guess, would be considered acceptable when it comes to understanding the intricacies of fact finding. So with that said Sherlock, you still have no proof what-so-ever who these people are, speculatioin and conjecture doesn’t cut it. All you have is what’s in front of you. Here’s an example, it’s curious how 2Short4U_but_not_for_my_gal and your writing are similar in style. I can;t say for certain that you two are one and the same, though it does seem it’s possible, however I have no eveidence to support this speculative line of thought. See , that’s conjecture, not fact. Additionally, I doubt very much you have a life outside of your online world, especially with what you’ve displayed of that “sparkling personality” of yours. It’s apparent your people skills are lacking. See that’s fact, not conjecture.
Furthermore, this hijacking the thread bull sh!t…is, well…petty, as well as what you’re presenting? You’re like other people who rail against not being accepted, but draw a line in the sand. Yeah,, that’s a phenominal way to break down barriers. The only way isms are nullified are by people from opposing sides starting a dialogue.
I had a whole paragraph written, but all I’m going to say is that your reasoning is, to say the least, skewed, and that is being kind.
Here’s another fact, not speculation…with your attitude, you couldn’t get laid in whorehouse even if you had a fist full of hunderd dollar bills and offered to pay their health insurance.
If it makes you feel better, write your heart answering this missive, however, I’m done, have a great life. I really do have a lot more interesting and important things to do. Take care.
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@ everybody
“…heightists don’t want any discussion on the topic: It sheds too much light on where the problem really is.”
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.
.
Specific answers:
= = = = = = = = =
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
Feet Still Touching the Ground…Dude, you really, really, need to get a life. Let me give you a little insight. As a former research assistant at a major university, the one thing I learned is this, you never, ever,ever,ever, assume anything, never. Yeah, yeah..I know…where do I get the audacity to offer you such advice?
Response:
ROFL. It is you that creates the notion that these assertions are based on tenuous “assumption” (you then go on to lecture about how assumptions are unreliable, etc. etc. etc. – __Classic__ “straw man” tactic). In contrast, we have explained and maintained that the conclusion that Kylie, Rylee, Ila, Andromeda, et al are likely the same poster was based on an examination of both writing style, common story line as well as common faults.
To have “assumed” something to the frivolous level you criticize, one would have not done such background work. Nice try, but as much as you like to believe, other posters are far from lesser primates in-situ.
The audacity to offer advice is more in line with the “arrogance” you accuse others of. We are not accusing you of such, but as usual, will allow others to decide which adversary is by far the more arrogant.
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
Simple, the professor who was the Principal Investigator for whom I worked for as a research assistant, worked with Jane Goodall in Africa for a year and half, not to shabby huh? So needless to say my pedigree, I guess, would be considered acceptable when it comes to understanding the intricacies of fact finding.
Response:
Curious. I have dealt with the same showboating on another forum many years ago. It was not the same topic, but the retreat to boasting about credentials is very familiar. Even if you were Jane Goodall herself, __ignoring__ the FACT that I supported my claims clearly and openly in order to build a false claim of “pure conjecture” is hardly adherence to fact-finding best practices.
You can assume that I am some uneducated, anti-social recluse if it makes you feel it gives more credence to your position.
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
So with that said Sherlock, you still have no proof what-so-ever who these people are, speculatioin and conjecture doesn’t cut it. All you have is what’s in front of you. Here’s an example, it’s curious how 2Short4U_but_not_for_my_gal and your writing are similar in style. I can;t say for certain that you two are one and the same, though it does seem it’s possible, however I have no eveidence to support this speculative line of thought. See , that’s conjecture, not fact.
Response:
This is pretty much a “plea to ignorance” (if we don’t know with absolute certainty, it can’t possible be the case). We could apply this to most criminal cases that do not have direct witnesses. Fortunately, most legal systems adhere to the notion of Occam’s rule.
2Short? Read the entire thread and you will find the truth on that. There is nothing being hidden there. The __KEY__ difference is that while “we” do not make any attempt to create an illusion of being more than one individual, Kylie-Rylie-plus-many-others DOES, and may even employ a sycophant or another avatar to assault those that have discovered their ploy (how’s that for “conjecture”?)
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
Additionally, I doubt very much you have a life outside of your online world, especially with what you’ve displayed of that “sparkling personality” of yours. It’s apparent your people skills are lacking. See that’s fact, not conjecture.
Response:
No. That is __not__ fact.
As it was mentioned before, your conclusion that I “do not have a life” is based on nothing but an agenda to denigrate those you cannot best in valid debate. This is easily supported by the frequent ad hominem you apply to your direct responses.
Apparently you have some incredible ability to create a model of a person’s personality based on nothing but topical responses on a blog. Seriously, can you not see the irony in this? Lacking in people skills? Which is the greater indicator of social ineptitude: Staying on topic, or lacing one’s response full of ad hominem in lieu of meaningful discussion?
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
Furthermore, this hijacking the thread bull sh!t…is, well…petty, as well as what you’re presenting?
Response:
The “fact” that Kylie-Rylee-et-al attempts to turn this thread into Taller-women vs. Shorter-men war (an animosity that doesn’t exist) is clearly supported. You can call it “Waste Material of the Bovine Kind” all you want, but it doesn’t hide that obvious truth.
Interesting. Ila, Kylie, et al. tend to end what are clearly statements with a question mark too. (Yes, we are building a case… or is that far too “speculative” for you?)
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
You’re like other people who rail against not being accepted, but draw a line in the sand. Yeah,, that’s a phenominal way to break down barriers. The only way isms are nullified are by people from opposing sides starting a dialogue.
Response:
The only “line in the sand” we could have drawn is a personal one. None but the moderator here can draw the communal line. However, in that regard, having the responsibility to call out miscreant behaviour is not to be confused with poor judgment or irrationality. One may be inflexible to selfish liberties, but accurate cognition of what constitutes these is an independent ability.
On breaking down barriers: When any campaign encounters elevated hostility, it is apparent that a rampart protecting a key position is in jeopardy.
As far as starting a dialogue, zealots often mistake any movement against their brand of prejudice as an attempt to change their minds. It is not. Those who are mired in their belief system are usually quite self-absorbed (“it’s all about ME.”) No one is really trying to change their minds.
Irrational “Ism”s are nullified with educating the observers. It is this education that detractors wish to derail by turning any discussion into a bar-room brawl.
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
I had a whole paragraph written, but all I’m going to say is that your reasoning is, to say the least, skewed, and that is being kind.
Response:
ROFLMAO. That is __all__ you can say. You have been repeatedly asked to demonstrate where our arguments have been fallacious or illogical. To this point, you have avoided this challenge and instead continue to only malign and name-call. Please.
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
Here’s another fact, not speculation…with your attitude, you couldn’t get laid in whorehouse even if you had a fist full of hunderd dollar bills and offered to pay their health insurance.
Response:
Really? Would they be more open to smaller bills and free amateur manicures? I could throw in some coupons for Denny’s or something. I thought I might go to one, but there isn’t one on the bus route and I don’t have a lock for my bike.
LOL. It would be hard enough to explain to my girlfriend where I was (I think I pay for her health insurance too). Please. Everybody gets it: You don’t have any substance to your claims, so you resort to insults.
massimo88 says:
September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
If it makes you feel better, write your heart answering this missive, however, I’m done, have a great life. I really do have a lot more interesting and important things to do. Take care.
Response:
No. I feel better knowing that others read this and can easily determine the mindset of each party as well as who presents supported arguments and who resorts to pettiness. Which is why heightists don’t want any discussion on the topic: It sheds too much light on where the problem really is.
I can’t “take” care: I have pay for it… with a fistful of hundreds. LOL.
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.
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@ everybody
“…heightists don’t want any discussion on the topic: It sheds too much light on where the problem really is.”
So many women are insecure with a man shorter then then. A girl I know said it must be a lot to look over dating my boyfriend since he is most likely two- three inches shorter then me. I’m 5’4-5’5″ and my boyfriend is probably 5’0-5’2. He is great. I don’t understand that a women has to have a man towering over get to see herself with him.Height should not take over so much aspect in a relationship.I wouldn’t trade what I have with anything. He is handsome,fun to be around and loving,amazing.
In general people are way too picky over stupid things and they end up in shallow short lived relationships. All based on society’s standards. That’s why so many are miserable.
I am pretty woman in my own way. Being tall and woman as being short & man has problems too. My friend recently get divorce and shes so happy and can’t wait to date I’m curious because she is so confident to do so. I’m seven years without offer because I’m too tall to be a women I always imagine wow to have the ability to date men without worries so short men feel the same? It is a hard time.
Iliana says:
September 15, 2012 at 5:44 am
I am pretty woman in my own way. Being tall and woman as being short & man has problems too.
Response:
One problem that taller-than-average women do not have (but shorter-than-average men do) is that of being constantly mocked.
Just as ILA was told, IliAna, no one is denying the challenges of being taller than average for a woman. However, no matter how many avatars are invented, NONE have come up with evidence that the dating challenges of taller-than-average women are of the same order of magnitude or frequency of that of shorter-than-average men in the online dating world.
If this issue is so great (since there are SO many taller than average women showing up here) why have we not been pointed to a blog about their issues?
Iliana says:
September 15, 2012 at 5:44 am
My friend recently get divorce and shes so happy and can’t wait to date I’m curious because she is so confident to do so. I’m seven years without offer because I’m too tall to be a women
Response:
There is no such thing as “being too tall to be a woman” If you are a woman, then, you ARE a woman. If that is meant to say that others do not treat you as such because you are exceptionally taller than average, then it may be a good idea to start a blog about. That would be a good place to tell the world about the challenges you are facing.
Most of the guys here have posted here have explicitly mentioned that they have no problem with taller-than-average women. Then again, by your own realization, you are a pretty woman. That is enough of an icebreaker for practically every guy.
Iliana says:
September 15, 2012 at 5:44 am
I always imagine wow to have the ability to date men without worries so short men feel the same? It is a hard time.
Response:
No. Shorter-than-average men are unlikely to have this “worry” about the ability to date women. They have the ability and that is that. It’s the anachronistic step back into the immature high-school mentality that a lot of dating-site members that is the problem. There’s no point in worrying about it. But there is a lot of worth in confronting it and in doing so, demonstrating that the problem is not the shorter-than-average man, but rather the juvenile mindset of the bigot.
Most of the short men posting here talk about the noticeable amount of prejudice they face in the online dating world. There is also a measure of it in the off-line world too (although not as pronounced as in cyberspace). In many cases, this prejudice extends into ridicule and harassment. People will go out of their way to deride the shorter-than-average man’s quandary over the www because it’s easy to do (at least until the local moderator has seen enough).
Fortunately, shorter-than-average guys figure out that the odds of success are much better in the real world. Out there, people are more likely to see all the other things that make a person who they really are: Things that are their own doing in reflecting who they aspire or have aspired to be. Outside, people are more balanced too. Online is often filled with attention-vampires, delusional desperados or downright nut-jobs.
This is a recommend path for anyone (be it “too tall”, “too short”, “too many avatars”, whatever). So… don’t just “imagine” it. Go out there and do it (or stay here, stuck in the same old pattern, it’s your choice).
“I have no use for women who won’t acknowledge my 5’6 frame. Let the tall guys deal with these girls who want them solely for their height. It’s just one less f**k buddy for me because my tall guy friends don’t have much relationship use for these women either. She can’t be that good of a person if she’s willing to sacrifice everything just for height.”
This is so true… I’m a 5’9″/5’10” guy but your statement is true in the fact that the tall guys also see right through these girls heightism/heightist and it’s also a turnoff for a lot of tall guys. Men don’t like women with such shallow “lists”, and especially when women diss their friends simply cause of their height and want that tall guy instead. That tall guy friend might f**k you but that’s it and then your kicked out the door.
Ok, now onto the women’s weight issue, it’s weight and although for some ladies it harder than other but at the same time weight is weight and it CAN be lost. It may take more work, change of lifestyle, change in diet etc. but none the less it CAN be LOST. Don’t deny it ladies, don’t make up dumb a** excuses weight can be lost period!!! That’s the issue men have is women constantly gripe, b*t*h, w*ine when men say no FATTIES, and if your fat loose it!!! Yet again at the same time were not saying go to the extremes and completely become anorexic stick figures cause that’s a turn off for men as well. Some men like a bit skinner women and some men like more hourglass curvy women. There’s a difference CURVY VS FAT that seems to trip women up a lot these days. FAT is FAT, CURVY is hourglass figures. Again, height CANT BE CHANGED where as WEIGHT CAN BE LOST!!
Women shouldn’t have to lose weight just to be more attractive to guys. They should lose it FOR THEMSELVES, so they can be happier and healthier. And it’s not as simple as “if your fat loose it!!” Don’t you think that if it were really that simple, they would? And I cannot reiterate enough, no woman should lose weight FOR A GUY.
I do agree that short men have it harder, because it is more feasible for women to lose weight than men to gain height.
Women being shallow about height and men being shallow about weight are both blessings, really, the way I see it. Do you really want to be in a relationship or marriage with a shallow, looks-obsessed person? Anyone who sees physical appearance as a dealbreaker is not worthy anyway. I see this as a good way to screen for the cream of the crop, the people who are capable of loving you for who you are and not how you look.
___Summary___
@Anna
Catering to the whims of others is a personal choice. Your height isn’t.
Decreasing your body fat ratio is not easy, but far from impossible. Adult height? Essentially impossible: There is no comparison.
When has ignoring a problem by rationalization helped any of us towards a more just society?
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Details:
Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 4:39 am
Women shouldn’t have to lose weight just to be more attractive to guys. They should lose it FOR THEMSELVES, so they can be happier and healthier. And it’s not as simple as “if your fat loose it!!” Don’t you think that if it were really that simple, they would? And I cannot reiterate enough, no woman should lose weight FOR A GUY.
___Answer:___
Your first statement is about how much one wants to cater to the whims of others. The answer to that can be “not at all”, but then the consequence is as expected. While it addresses the free will of the both parties it sidesteps the distinction of “height prejudice” as it body fat is still a trait that is personally alterable. Also the idealized condition (a reasonable body fat ratio) is correlated to a healthy physique (whereas adult height is no where an indication of current health).
No one said that loosing a great deal of weight was an easy process. You can stop erecting that straw man to beat. It is the same as many things in life that people admire. It takes effort and constant vigilance. If one doesn’t want to go to the effort, then so be it. However, this is completely irrelevant to the situation of vilifying men for being “too short”.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 4:39 am
I do agree that short men have it harder, because it is more feasible for women to lose weight than men to gain height.
___Answer:___
This is really more of the same underplaying of the virtual impossibility for anyone to gain height. Shorter guys have difficulty because of the social conditioning (especially in the Western World) that being under average height is somehow a mark of unworthiness.
The curious thing is the amount of defensiveness that women exhibit around the subject.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 4:39 am
Women being shallow about height and men being shallow about weight are both blessings, really, the way I see it. Do you really want to be in a relationship or marriage with a shallow, looks-obsessed person? Anyone who sees physical appearance as a dealbreaker is not worthy anyway.
___Answer:___
Seriously? This is merely rationalization. Being the victim of prejudice on a trait that one has no control over is hardly a blessing. Imagine if this attitude was prescribed to anyone not of a locally privileged ethnicity. “Hey you aren’t __this ethnicity__ so consider it a blessing if you don’t get to compete for a date, a job, etc… being single and welfare means you still get to live.” This is dismissive of the tort and really just a way to avoid the situation.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 4:39 am
I see this as a good way to screen for the cream of the crop, the people who are capable of loving you for who you are and not how you look.
___Answer:___
Right. Perhaps all those women from 100 years ago should have heeded these words and sought out a country that allows them the vote. Why protest for eliminating the irrational prejudice that they don’t have the worth to be counted? That’s a good way to screen for the “cream of the crop” countries (nations that are capable of giving you equality not based on your gender).
Can you truly not see why ignoring the problem only propagates it?
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= = = = =
Summary
@Anna
Catering to the whims of others is a personal choice. Your height isn’t.
Decreasing your body fat ratio is not easy, but far from impossible. Adult height? Essentially impossible: There is no comparison.
When has ignoring a problem by rationalization helped any of us towards a more just society?
I worked in a clothes shop. I decided never to date because i was so physically repulsive (i was 16 and i won’t bore you except to say, i think i looked – average! Bit uglier, bit blonder, bit bigger breasts, bit fatter, average overall.) So i thought it was just me that was screwed up (i decided when the desire to have kids came calling when i’d become infertile, early, in my mid thirties, as i found out when i went to the insemination hospital.) Then i got a job in a dress shop. Everyone, i mean everyone, i wanted to scream and slap them about the face, is convinced, or all women at least, that they are worthless because they are unloveable because they are not sexually attractive because they are ugly because – well, the excuses are endless. Too bony, eyes too close together, too fat, too short, too tall, too – well, average in nearly every case. 98% of women are fucked up, totally fucked up, about their bodies! i had actually escaped all this by getting off that train earlier, in certain ways. There were 2 classes of women who didn’t whinge nonstop – 1) people who were clearly suddenly getting a lot of sex and loving it – eighty year olds who’d just met a 70yo toyboy, fiances, that sort of thing – and women with like holes in half their face or something truly awful (to live with, not awful-ugly) who were quite matter-of-fact. ‘Can you find me a hat that hides the left half of my face? I don’t enjoy everyone staring at it’ for instance. They alone had come to terms with their bodies…and with society’s determination to ruin their self-esteem. Also, after this, i became convinced that the whole body-image thing is actually a major issue because it is destroying so much of so many people’s self-worth and i became politically active over it, even though i didn’t care for myself at all before!
I have enjoyed reading the above. I’m a 5’6 guy and my height is what it is but it certainly doesn’t define who I am and I don’t let some b*tch define me over my height. I have achieved a lot in my 30 years, including graduating and practicing law, making money through some wise investments and having a family. I guess my point is guys, don’t let part of what you are hold you back because of someone’s preconceived notion that because you are ‘short’ you are of lesser value than some bum who happens to be 6’2.
I’m 5’4″. Well, just short of it, honestly. I find shorter men more attractive, my ideal is two or three inches taller than me. And a confident, level headed, caring guy an inch or two shorter than me? I could deal. Height isn’t everything, and there’s some of us women who have a real thing for a more compact build, and who don’t want to have to crane our necks to catch a guy’s eye. Don’t give up hope.
NO! You like “short men” who are still taller than you. Stop F***ing trying to be slick with the “I like short men” comment.
Well, on average men are about – what 5 inches?- taller than girls; it makes sense to consider a guy only two inches taller than you relatively short for you
Oh wow. I’m 5’5 male I’ve stumbled upon this site because I’ve been feeling self-conscious about my height lately and reading all these posts makes me feel worse.
From what I read it seems that us short men shouldn’t even bother with online dating. I’ve never done online dating but it makes sense that online dating is not meant for us because its all about first impressions.
My personal advice would be to meet a girl, develop a friendship, and then ask her out. Me and my current, and first, girlfriend knew each other for 2 years in college before we started dating. She’s 2 inches taller than me and I’ll be lying if I said I’m fine with it, but I’m not complaining. Taller or not I love her all the same.
My other friend who is 5’6 has a girlfriend who is 5’3 and they met through work.
So all hope is not lost. We just have to use a different method that allows a girl to see who we really are.
Hello everyone, I’m here sitting at my PC just reading after reading all these varied comments. I’m a 5’4 male 46 and in probably the best shape of his life, and yes the height issue has haunted me through out my life as well. At 46 now I have an almost fictional physic. My ex wife was 5’10. I have had many women in my life time mostly all taller than me by a few inches.
Sure there is a double standard based on social preference (the ladies in this case), sure enough it hasn’t been once- twice i have approached taller women to the get the height brush off. Oddly enough many of these woman still want to become my friend and end up wanting to consult with me about the things they don’t like about themselves, number one is their weight. I don’t think I have ever met a woman who is truly happy with her bod, regardless how hot she really looks.
They seem to be fascinated with my confidence it’s like the only thing I can round this off to. Which does back some comments in other posts about how important confidence is to a woman. Still it makes me chuckle about the high demands. Acceptance and or rejection is part of this brain washed society we live in. Sure Barbie and Ken are the prototypes but how many of us can truly say we fall under that category?
I see unattractive over weight people everyday waking day, and no matter how socially unattractive people are most of us unless we are total assholes find someone.
In my findings I believe the rise in the short man thing is pretty much related the over weight problem currently in the U.S… It’s simple.. women want a tall man to make them feel, small. Even if the guy is a bit taller, if a gal is more than 30% over weight she is going to feel not right with a guy who is in better shape regardless their height.
Im’ NOT saying this is for all women, but to many it is something to worry about. I’ve noted a general pattern no matter what size the woman is. Toxic, I must admit for any woman. Women have a tendency that when they nail the guy they want. Tall or not, they tend to let themselves go, why this is..is beyond me. And mind you the girl I’m currently dating is quite full body wise and I find her adorable, still she is TOO self conscience about her weight. Something many guys are either willing to forgive or in many cases even like.
But it goes on and on and on.. Again there is someone out there for everyone. I agree with the people who discard “superficial” people in general. We have all become to plastic to begin with. I’m proud of my appearance at my age or any. And that general sense of well being far outweighs any rejection I might get from some bubble head who doesn’t like me for my height.
Hope no one is offended, this is not a bash to any group, just found the reading great and wanted to throw in my two cents.
I’m going to reiterate what Massimo88 said:
Here are the top characteristics (in order) in mate selection women tended to prefer:
1- Considerate
2- Honest
3- Dependable
4- Kind
5- Understanding
6- Fond of Children
7- Well Liked by Others
8- Good Earning Capacity
9- Ambitious and Career Oriented
10- Good family Background
11- Tall
He’s right…it’s there but at the bottom of the list. Mind you every women is different and height might be more important to some (deal breaker) while negotiable or not an issue for others.
Here’s the thing to keep in mind. I used to be a woman who would date men shorter than me. Unfortunately, I will NOT do it again after my last experience. If that seems unfair, keep in mind that I’ve dated men shorter than me at 5’6 and ran into the same issues with them that occurred with this last chap…except he took it to the stratosphere. Experience is a bitch.
If you’re a short guy (say 5’6 and under) you may have to more conscious of your actions than say a guy at 5’10. By that I mean, if your height has made you bitter and angry and you meet a lovely, physically attractive woman whose ambitious, generous and kind and doesn’t mind the height difference — this should go without saying — don’t be a jerk. Don’t fall into the stereotype because if you treat her like a small, petty, mean little man she’s going to walk away associating lack of stature to the Napoleon complex and possibly never or be reticent to date a shorter guy again, which for the good guys sucks.
At what point should a person continue to ignore the obvious? After dating a handful of short men throughout 15 years of singledom, I have to say ALL of them had issues and put their issues on me when I wasn’t bothered by it, I wore flats (some at their request w/out complaint) and never teased or even made fun of their height. It simply was what it was. But THEY had the issues. They made ME feel bad and were more abusive than the average height guys in terms of self-absorption, passive aggression and manipulative mind games. They were mean.
I’m not suggesting that short men should grovel, act like a doormat and put up with a witch of a woman — hell to the no — you gotta bring confidence and self-esteem but not cockiness, arrogance, insensitivity and dear god don’t be cheap to boot.
The last 5’4, 10 yrs my senior was all the nasty qualities above. I’m sympathetic to the plight of the short man in our society in that adolescence must be tough and the short man syndrome bias that exists, sorry to say, for a reason. When I ended it with said jerk my friends (males & females of all heights) pretty much acted like “well, what did I expect. He’s got a Napoleon complex.” I argued he’s just a jerk but the more I think back the more I do attribute his selfishness with being angry and bitter at the world. Sad for him. Sad for a good guy who might be 5’5 that I won’t give a chance to because I’ve been burned too many times by the shorties. Ironically, a friend just sent me this link today with a smiley face and a wink.
If you complain but that stereotype just isn’t fair….same short guy from above vehemently defended the stereotype that Asian people can’t drive. I think I bit off a tiny part of my tongue at his hypocrisy. It took everything not for me to turn and say, “Well, if that’s true…I guess all short men are assholes with a Napoleon complex.” Do I believe all Asian people are bad drivers, lol, no. Would I like to believe that not all short men are bitter, angry jerks. Yes. Do I anymore? Not so much. I think women who encounter or watch their girlfriends with short men that act like jerks put 2 + 2 together. Why wouldn’t they?
If you’re short and you do find a terrific woman who isn’t all about the exterior, then double-check that list above and make sure you are head and shoulders above in No 1-5. Doesn’t hurt if you’re gainfully employed either but being considerate, taking an interest, thinking about someone beyond yourself are traits not defined by height but can go a long way to shore up the difference where it counts. At the very least, if it doesn’t work out, the woman will have had a GOOD experience with a short man and be open to doing it again. Don’t let the Napoleon’s of this world undermine you…literally.
Seriously… lol… Your post is really nothing but an attempt to promote the myth of a prevalent Napoleon Complex.
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Specific Answers:
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
I’m going to reiterate what Massimo88 said:
Here are the top characteristics (in order) in mate selection women tended to prefer:
1- Considerate
2- Honest
3- Dependable
4- Kind
5- Understanding
6- Fond of Children
7- Well Liked by Others
8- Good Earning Capacity
9- Ambitious and Career Oriented
10- Good family Background
11- Tall
He’s right…it’s there but at the bottom of the list. Mind you every women is different and height might be more important to some (deal breaker) while negotiable or not an issue for others.
__Response__
Actually, Massimo88 misrepresented the findings of Dr. David Buss. This can happen when people have presumptions and then look to “fit” the data to the desired results.
The referenced list is in order of __overall__ (both gender) preferences. It neither states nor implies that the list is ranked in order of difference (as Massimo88 appears to imply. You can check the paper out to see this:
Click to access prefs_mate_selection_1986_jpsp.pdf
Where there is statistical significance of difference between the two populations it made the list Massimo pulled from one of the paragraphs of the above paper. The fact that height shows up when the T-test is done indicates that women hold this in regard enough be important.
Just as those who criticize heightism have been saying, it isn’t the entire population of women. However, this does demonstrate that some do hold it in higher regard. It is entirely possible that a percentage hold it to the point of being a restriction.
Incidentally, this is why showboating vicarious credentials (in Massimo88’s case, 2 degrees of separation) only proves that skills are not transferable this way.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Here’s the thing to keep in mind. I used to be a woman who would date men shorter than me. Unfortunately, I will NOT do it again after my last experience. If that seems unfair, keep in mind that I’ve dated men shorter than me at 5’6 and ran into the same issues with them that occurred with this last chap…except he took it to the stratosphere. Experience is a bitch.
__Response__
While everyone’s experience will vary, this is starting to take the shape of a typical “Napoleon Syndrome” myth promotion.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
If you’re a short guy (say 5’6 and under) you may have to more conscious of your actions than say a guy at 5’10. By that I mean, if your height has made you bitter and angry and you meet a lovely, physically attractive woman whose ambitious, generous and kind and doesn’t mind the height difference — this should go without saying — don’t be a jerk. Don’t fall into the stereotype because if you treat her like a small, petty, mean little man she’s going to walk away associating lack of stature to the Napoleon complex and possibly never or be reticent to date a shorter guy again, which for the good guys sucks.
__Response__
It is not any stretch of the imagination to understand the reactions of anyone being scorned for an involuntary, immutable and innocuous trait to be less than amicable. To portray such reaction as “angry or bitter” is really an attempt to “blame the victim” of being too sensitive. Be honest. Who would be indifferent to being the focus of bigotry?
Even those not directly targeted by the prejudice will be moved to speak out against it. Furthermore, it is clearly those that wish to promote heightism that demonstrate “angry and bitter” attitudes (“Rosa” is as agitated as it gets.) Those who persist in creating avatars to propagate the same old lies are also doing it out of a hostility towards the shorter than average man.
As it has been maintained, it is the heightist that is usually angered and bitter about their own self-inflicted inadequacies.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
At what point should a person continue to ignore the obvious? After dating a handful of short men throughout 15 years of singledom, I have to say ALL of them had issues and put their issues on me when I wasn’t bothered by it, I wore flats (some at their request w/out complaint) and never teased or even made fun of their height. It simply was what it was. But THEY had the issues. They made ME feel bad and were more abusive than the average height guys in terms of self-absorption, passive aggression and manipulative mind games. They were mean.
__Response__
Practically every single shorter than average man on this blog has clearly stated that they have no issues with a woman being taller. While it not impossible for your prior suitor to have asked that you refrain from wearing heels, it is highly improbable. This is nothing more than an attempt to promote myth that shorter men are self-conscious about their height. Whether it be to their significant other or other men, they __ARE NOT__. This is more a demonstration of how heightists project their insecurity on others.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
I’m not suggesting that short men should grovel, act like a doormat and put up with a witch of a woman — hell to the no — you gotta bring confidence and self-esteem but not cockiness, arrogance, insensitivity and dear god don’t be cheap to boot.
__Response__
Shorter than average men have the same broad spectrum of how men treat women as those of average height or taller. This is hyperbole. In fact, it is more likely that more men over the magic 6 foot threshold will act boorishly (since heightist apparently throw themselves at them LOL).
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
The last 5’4, 10 yrs my senior was all the nasty qualities above. I’m sympathetic to the plight of the short man in our society in that adolescence must be tough and the short man syndrome bias that exists, sorry to say, for a reason. When I ended it with said jerk my friends (males & females of all heights) pretty much acted like “well, what did I expect. He’s got a Napoleon complex.” I argued he’s just a jerk but the more I think back the more I do attribute his selfishness with being angry and bitter at the world. Sad for him. Sad for a good guy who might be 5’5 that I won’t give a chance to because I’ve been burned too many times by the shorties.
__Response__
The short-man syndrome exists mainly in the mind of heightists. It is a coping mechanism to rationalize their prejudice. At the end of fifteen years of “singledom” you have experienced both shorter than average and those not shorter than average. You are not attached to any of these anymore (at least from the evidence presented). Since all of these relationships ended you have been effectively “burned” by both groups (regardless of who ended it, the relationships ended). It stands to reason that you should no longer date men since they have all burned you.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Ironically, a friend just sent me this link today with a smiley face and a wink.
__Response__
I was waiting to see when such convenient mitigation as to how you “stumbled” upon this blog would appear. If you have to mention it, it is more likely that this is Massimo8-“9” ROFL.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
If you complain but that stereotype just isn’t fair….same short guy from above vehemently defended the stereotype that Asian people can’t drive. I think I bit off a tiny part of my tongue at his hypocrisy. It took everything not for me to turn and say, “Well, if that’s true…I guess all short men are assholes with a Napoleon complex.” Do I believe all Asian people are bad drivers, lol, no. Would I like to believe that not all short men are bitter, angry jerks. Yes. Do I anymore? Not so much. I think women who encounter or watch their girlfriends with short men that act like jerks put 2 + 2 together. Why wouldn’t they?
__Response__
This is just more of the mythology of the Napoleon Complex. This has been proven to be pure fantasy. You can look it up yourself online.
Swingin’ on a Star says:
November 11, 2012 at 8:55 pm
If you’re short and you do find a terrific woman who isn’t all about the exterior, then double-check that list above and make sure you are head and shoulders above in No 1-5. Doesn’t hurt if you’re gainfully employed either but being considerate, taking an interest, thinking about someone beyond yourself are traits not defined by height but can go a long way to shore up the difference where it counts. At the very least, if it doesn’t work out, the woman will have had a GOOD experience with a short man and be open to doing it again. Don’t let the Napoleon’s of this world undermine you…literally.
__Response__
Shorter than average guys come across terrific women in the real world all the time. They also encounter heightists out there and in here. Online has a higher representation of heightists. The reasons have already been discussed. This is just the typical “advice” that shorter than average guys neither need nor have solicited: They are fully aware of these things.
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Seriously… lol… Your post is really nothing but an attempt to promote the myth of a prevalent Napoleon Complex.
Feet still touching the ground…you are truly a pathetic dweeb, and the poster child, as-well-as being living and breathing proof that the Napoleon complex does exist….which is something that I have to give you credit for, you do excel at it…along with being a first rate a $ $ hole, par excellence, by the way…
…”Swinging On A Star” handed you the keys to the kingdom. Here is a female “telling” you what to do and what not to do with women…and what do you do? Your usual psychotic bull s h l t …I can say for certain, that you are going to spend the rest of your life watching porn and spankin the money…I doubt even a “working woman” give it up for you…
Okay skippy, I’m going to post what I wrote, again, regarding research conducted by David M. Buss PhD. You have both twisted and misquoted me and the research I used. So, once again, here’s my original post so people get the real information and not spin from a member of the lunatic fringe:
“According to David M. Buss PhD, when it comes to mate selection, “we are going to end up with someone similar to us in almost every variable.” Dr. Buss is a professor of psychology at The University of Texas at Austin. He is considered the leading expert in the field of evolutionary psychology research on human sex differences in mate selection.
He has conducted many studies over the years with the largest having included over 10,000 subjects from across six continents and island nations. All in the name of finding if there was a global similarity in human mating preferences. And guess what? There was. The research showed that human mate selection among men and women has little to do with race or culture and everything to do with being a man or women. So take heart my vertically challenged brothers, there is hope for us.
Here are some interesting findings that turned up in the good Doctor’s research. For starters, as a whole the “TOP TEN CHARACTERISTIC’S “ valued in a mate by both men and women are as follows:
1-Good Companion
2-Considerate
3-Honest
4-Affectionate
5-Dependable
6-Intelligent
7-Kind
8-Understanding
9-Interesting to Talk To
10-Loyal
Remember the list above constitutes the TOP TEN CHARACTERISTICS both men and women seek in a mate.
Believe it or not, the following list shows what men and women find the least desirable characteristics in a mate (pay special attention to traits 6 & 7):
1-Wants a Large Family
2-Dominant
3-Agnostic In Religious Matters
4-Night Owl
5-Early Riser
6-Tall
7-Wealthy
How about that, TALL and WEALTHY are on the bottom of the combined list of characteristics that men and women find least desirable.
However, here are the top characteristics (in order) in mate selection women tended to prefer:
1- Considerate
2- Honest
3- Dependable
4- Kind
5- Understanding
6- Fond of Children
7- Well Liked by Others
8- Good Earning Capacity
9- Ambitious and Career Oriented
10- Good family Background
11- Tall
Yeah, tall is there, but as you can see, it’s at the bottom of the list, and was that negligible, that it’s not given weight in the research. From personal experience as a vertically challenged individual, I can tell you that if you have the majority of the first ten desirable characteristics that women tended to prefer, you have a pretty fair chance attracting a “good” woman. You can read the entire paper here: http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/prefs_mate_selection_1986_jpsp.pdf ”
Now, before I continue, your new name is “Feet Still Touching the Ground With My Head Up My A $ $,” which suits you better.
And before you start to feel any self-importance because you are mistaking this missive as a response to your irrelevant ramblings, let me state this post is to: Assure others that it is only a very small group of vertically challenged people who are self-absorbed angry trolls(like yourself), incapable of reasoning, and rationalize away an addled thought processes in order to shirk responsibility for your/their social inadequacies. And, that the rest of the vertically challenged population (short guys and tall women) are actually pretty cool people.
As for “Feet Still Touching The Ground and Head Up My A $ $,” the one thing that really makes me feel good is that my life, and other diminutive male friends I have, prove that the trolls ramblings are bull shite. Just my own experience where I have dated ring girls, print models, bathing suit models(something he’ll never do), and I’m just an average guy. I don’t have a lot of money, I don’t look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, though I do have a lot of really good friends, many of whom I’ve had for years.
Furthermore, one instance that comes to mind was a relationship with a former print model, whom I’m still friends with till this day. She’s bright, considerate, and gracious with a great sense of humor. and would turn heads wherever we would go in LA. Additionally, she’s 5′-10″, and when we were going together would wear 5″ heels, and introduce me as “My Little Big Man,” to her friends, and family. She would become territorial when other women paid a little too much attention to me. Remember this is LA, where all the beautiful people live. This is something that the troll will never experience. Why? Because people like him and others like him refuse to make the best of what they have. I know that I am constantly both humbled, and inspired by individuals who overcome greater physical challenged than being short, and the way these individuals do it with grace and strength. This is something “Feet Still Touching the Ground With My Head Up My A $ $” will never get, or a lesson he and his type will never learn.
Knowing that the angry troll “Feet Still Touching the Ground With My Head Up My A $ $” will never experience this because of his arrogant self-aggrandizement reinforces the findings of David M. Buss PhD, which is simply nothing more than a person really liking him/herself, accepting people for who they are, and working to improve who you are as a person.
It was discovered that you interpreted the order of attributes listed to mean that being in eleventh place meant that Tall is in eleventh place in respects to a difference between the genders. __This is wholly unsupported.__
Your response sidesteps the crux of the criticism and really is nothing more than an angry rant
When challenged, the type of behaviour your posts have exhibited is hardly a product of inspiration from observing the resilience of others. You have every opportunity to defend your arguments maturely and without resorting to ad hominem. The record clearly shows that you have not done this.
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Specific answers:
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Feet still touching the ground…you are truly a pathetic dweeb, and the poster child, as-well-as being living and breathing proof that the Napoleon complex does exist….which is something that I have to give you credit for, you do excel at it…along with being a first rate a $ $ hole, par excellence, by the way…
__Response__
Lol. A typically insult-laced and name-calling response that doesn’t address the criticisms levied. How absolutely predictable (and predicted) was that?
The promotion of your posting by “Swinging on a Star” is __APTLY__ criticized, and you come out of your self-declared moratorium (- – – massimo88 says: September 13, 2012 at 7:11 am
If it makes you feel better, write your heart answering this missive, however, I’m done, have a great life. I really do have a lot more interesting and important things to do. Take care. – – -) to fire back with the typically ad hominem response. Furthermore your response sidesteps the crux of the criticism and really is nothing more than an angry rant. This fits the model that some are surreptitiously promoting mythology, and defending it by trying to bully people into silence (some even employing multiple avatars to do this.)
As usual we will let the audience decide just who has the “Napoleon Complex” as well as earning the top grade of rectal orifice likeness.
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
…”Swinging On A Star” handed you the keys to the kingdom. Here is a female “telling” you what to do and what not to do with women…and what do you do? Your usual psychotic bull s h l t …I can say for certain, that you are going to spend the rest of your life watching porn and spankin the money…I doubt even a “working woman” give it up for you…
__Response__
As Swinging and several others have been informed, shorter than average men, and men in general do not need the “advice” that “she” is offering. These are self-evident to most people who have any social experience. This type of counsel is rarely solicited and is usually just meant to be the condescending lecture that it is.
Besides the problem is not the attitude of shorter than average men. It is the attitude of heightists.
Applying irrelevant personal attacks only makes the attacker look the immature fool that they pretend not to be. I’m not sure how flagellating bank notes (spanking the “money”) provides solace. You also keep bringing up sex trade workers into the conversation. Is this something you have some experience with? Perhaps you can enlighten us (I haven’t technically paid for services, although having to sit through “The Notebook” in the past somewhat qualified as “payment”.)
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Okay skippy, I’m going to post what I wrote, again, regarding research conducted by David M. Buss PhD. You have both twisted and misquoted me and the research I used. So, once again, here’s my original post so people get the real information and not spin from a member of the lunatic fringe:
__Response__
ROFL. You are trying to avoid admitting that you did indeed misrepresent Dr. Buss’s paper in order to support your claim.
What was the misinterpretation? Here it is, AGAIN:
It was discovered that you interpreted the order of attributes listed to mean that being in eleventh place meant that Tall is in eleventh place in respects to a difference between the genders. __This is wholly unsupported.__ The actual text in the paper reads:
…Sex Differences in Mate Selection Preferences
To examine sex differences, we computed t tests for each of the 76 items. In relation to men, the women in this sample tended to prefer the following spouse characteristics: considerate, honest, dependable, kind, understanding, fond of children, well-liked by others, good earning capacity, ambitious and career-oriented, good family background, and tall (all ps < .01, two-tailed)…
Let all of us know __WHERE__ this means that:
__A__ “TALL” is specifically RANKED eleventh in __DIFFERENCE__ between the sexes.
__B__ being in eleventh place in this list means that a portion of women DO NOT hold this in significantly high regard.
(Hint: It doesn’t say those things. The order is NOT the order of difference. Dr. Buss, Dr. Goodall, Dr. Seuss, and probably many educated sex trade workers will all agree. If anything, it demonstrates how height becomes significant in a portion of women when a gender split is applied.)
It is clear why you are purposely trying to deflect from this: it is the premise in which you drag in Dr. Buss’s work, and that premise is __WRONG__.
You go on further to talk about he has done studies on 10,000 subjects to introduce the findings of the paper you used as support. This too is intentional subterfuge since the paper is not based on a population of 10,000. In reality it was done on far fewer subjects. The 10,000 are part of other studies. That already constitutes misrepresentation. Would you like to let us all know how this is not? (Feel free to lace the response with all sorts of name-calling too as it is so very reinforcing to one’s arguments.)
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Now, before I continue, your new name is “Feet Still Touching the Ground With My Head Up My A $ $,” which suits you better.
And before you start to feel any self-importance because you are mistaking this missive as a response to your irrelevant ramblings, let me state this post is to: Assure others that it is only a very small group of vertically challenged people who are self-absorbed angry trolls(like yourself), incapable of reasoning, and rationalize away an addled thought processes in order to shirk responsibility for your/their social inadequacies. And, that the rest of the vertically challenged population (short guys and tall women) are actually pretty cool people.
__Response__
Yes. Of course, name-calling is the act of those who stand on firm foundations (not. LOL).
Self-importance: This coming from one who claimed appreciable scientific acumen by virtue of two degrees of separation? I do not think irony can be better demonstrated.
Self absorbed: I direct the audience to your subsequent grandstanding on your dating history to let them decide where this is happening.
Angry Troll: Just who has to lace their responses with insults and name-calling? That would be more the definitive “trolling” that you speak of.
How you can decide someone’s height relative to the general populace through a discussion that has never mentioned or alluded to it is more the “rationalization” that you accuse others of. The “fact” is that your posting __IS__ a direct response to my posting. No matter how you try to camouflage this adolescent bluster as a “by example” altruistic demonstration of how erudite shorter than average men are, it only shows that your true intent: an attempt to injure those who have apparently bruised your ego (Just what is that “Napoleon Complex” again? Lol.)
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
As for “Feet Still Touching The Ground and Head Up My A $ $,” the one thing that really makes me feel good is that my life, and other diminutive male friends I have, prove that the trolls ramblings are bull shite. Just my own experience where I have dated ring girls, print models, bathing suit models(something he’ll never do), and I’m just an average guy. I don’t have a lot of money, I don’t look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, though I do have a lot of really good friends, many of whom I’ve had for years.
Furthermore, one instance that comes to mind was a relationship with a former print model, whom I’m still friends with till this day. She’s bright, considerate, and gracious with a great sense of humor. and would turn heads wherever we would go in LA. Additionally, she’s 5′-10″, and when we were going together would wear 5″ heels, and introduce me as “My Little Big Man,” to her friends, and family. She would become territorial when other women paid a little too much attention to me. Remember this is LA, where all the beautiful people live.
__Response__
…and those who have debunked you arguments has done none of this? You know this, how? Oh, I forgot: you are rationalizing.
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
This is something that the troll will never experience. Why? Because people like him and others like him refuse to make the best of what they have. I know that I am constantly both humbled, and inspired by individuals who overcome greater physical challenged than being short, and the way these individuals do it with grace and strength. This is something “Feet Still Touching the Ground With My Head Up My A $ $” will never get, or a lesson he and his type will never learn.
__Response__
In having their faulty foundation exposed, one chooses to fume by name-calling and spewing insults. Please let the audience know how this is a demonstration of the humility you are touting.
When challenged, the type of behaviour your posts have exhibited is hardly a product of inspiration from observing the resilience of others. You have every opportunity to defend your arguments maturely and without resorting to ad hominem. The record clearly shows that you have not done this.
massimo88 says:
November 12, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Knowing that the angry troll “Feet Still Touching the Ground With My Head Up My A $ $” will never experience this because of his arrogant self-aggrandizement reinforces the findings of David M. Buss PhD, which is simply nothing more than a person really liking him/herself, accepting people for who they are, and working to improve who you are as a person.
__Response__
R-O-F-L-M-A-O
“Accepting people for who they are”? For someone who has shown nothing but contempt for those who have exposed the faults in your arguments, you are definitely not a model of this.
Your opposition is self-aggrandizing? This is too much.
I have largely steered clear of bringing any personal anecdote into this discussion (in fact, I have pretty much have stuck to the topic as much as possible.) In deep contrast, you have excessively boasted about your scientific expertise, your prowess in attracting women, and your self-proclaimed but not demonstrated humility.
This is a clear example of how some will project their own behaviour onto others. Really. Read the posts (yours, all the Ila Avatars, Rosa, etc.) and read mine. Show us where we have behaved in a self-aggrandizing nature. Will this be another challenge that is avoided, and instead, just be replied to with a fusillade of angry insults and trite name-calling? The choice is yours.
– – – – – –
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It was discovered that you interpreted the order of attributes listed to mean that being in eleventh place meant that Tall is in eleventh place in respects to a difference between the genders. __This is wholly unsupported.__
Your response sidesteps the crux of the criticism and really is nothing more than an angry rant
When challenged, the type of behaviour your posts have exhibited is hardly a product of inspiration from observing the resilience of others. You have every opportunity to defend your arguments maturely and without resorting to ad hominem. The record clearly shows that you have not done this.
First of all “Feet Still Touching the Ground and My Head Up My A$$,” me angry, not a chance, you a waste of space, absolutely. So with that said skippy, lets get the facts straight: the sample size for the study- 10,046 participants from 37 cultures, across six continents and five islands.
Ordering of research results is standard procedure irregardless of format.
You have your head father up your a $ $ than any human being ever has…
…I’ll make this quick…in your post to “Swinging on a Star” you wrote:
“I was waiting to see when such convenient mitigation as to how you “stumbled” upon this blog would appear. If you have to mention it, it is more likely that this is Massimo8-“9” ROFL.”
You couldn’t be more wrong Spanky, I have no Idea who “Swining On A Star” is. And she doesn’t know who I am. Plus once again, as a woman she agreed with the research finding of what women want in mates, which you completely disregard. So there you go spike, these two instances alone(diregarding valuable information from a source, and your error in speculating the familiarity between “Swinging on a Star” and your’s truly) prove that you have your head up your a $ $, and have no idea what you’re talking about.
By the way, put the Thesaurus way, skippy, you don’t know the full meaning of the language you’re using…another sign of your Napoleonic Complex showing.
One other thing, the tone of my responses where you or any of your ilk are involved is a poroduct of not suffering fools gladly, and you Bevis are a fool par-exellence! You’re an angry little troll, who will never ever get it. My hope is that people don’t think that all vertically challenged people aren’t as “anal expulsive” as you are…and I do mean expulsive. Crawl back under your bridge, you troll.
@ Massimo88
As usual, you have avoided acknowledgement of your errors, attempt to obfuscate them by deflection, and continue to employ what can only be described as childish name-calling and ad hominem attack.
This just makes it easy to illustrate how those who rationalize their situation will become increasingly hostile when confronted with the fallacies of their foundation. Please continue, as this is getting quite entertaining!
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Specific Answers
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
First of all “Feet Still Touching the Ground and My Head Up My A$$,” me angry, not a chance, you a waste of space, absolutely. So with that said skippy, lets get the facts straight:
__Response__
Hmm… Let’s see.
Name calling? Check.
Childish insults? Check.
More flippant pronouns to reference your opponent? Check.
Actions speak far greater than any self-proclamation of innocence. Even the casual observer can determine your demeanour to be “angry”.
And with “that said”, your attempts at rebuttal will now be neutered.
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
the sample size for the study- 10,046 participants from 37 cultures, across six continents and five islands.
__Response__
Really? For the 1986 paper you referenced,
Click to access prefs_mate_selection_1986_jpsp.pdf
The synopsis clearly states:
…In Study 1 (N = 184) we document…
…In Study 2 (N = 100)…
(It’s right at the top of the pdf if you want to search for it)
That would be a total sample size of 284 (184 + 100) and far from the 10,000 claim.
In fact, the sample size of 10,046 you reference is for a wholly different study (different objectives, different test questions). Using the much larger sample size of one study as emphasis for the findings of a prior (and different) study is non sequitur (wow __ANOTHER__ term I may actually understand enough to use!) This is clearly subterfuge. The “fact” that you still try to deflect from this is further proof that it was likely an intentional falsehood.
(Now there is no longer any doubt of the trickery. You should have just let that go.)
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
Ordering of research results is standard procedure irregardless of format.
__Response__
Since no one has made any claim of format being an issue, this constitutes the usual straw man argument. Your fallacy was in misinterpreting the placement of “tall” in eleventh position to mean that it ranked eleventh in difference-of-importance between the genders. It does not. The ordering is in the overall (as in both groups combined) rating of each attribute. That should have been obvious to even those of us that are three or four degrees of separation from a world-class researcher. LOL.
This error was clearly laid out to you and this is just an attempt to deflect and save what little face remains.
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
You have your head father up your a $ $ than any human being ever has…
__Response__
Even with the sample size of two in this conversation, I could only rank second at best, so that too is a falsehood. Lol.
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
…I’ll make this quick…in your post to “Swinging on a Star” you wrote:
“I was waiting to see when such convenient mitigation as to how you “stumbled” upon this blog would appear. If you have to mention it, it is more likely that this is Massimo8-“9” ROFL.”
You couldn’t be more wrong Spanky, I have no Idea who “Swining On A Star” is. And she doesn’t know who I am. Plus once again, as a woman she agreed with the research finding of what women want in mates, which you completely disregard. So there you go spike, these two instances alone(diregarding valuable information from a source, and your error in speculating the familiarity between “Swinging on a Star” and your’s truly) prove that you have your head up your a $ $, and have no idea what you’re talking about.
__Response__
Big LOL: The reference to Swinging being Massimo8-“9” was to illustrate how that poster (he or she) was likely insincere in their agenda.
It also had the intended mission to prove that some who claimed to “be done” and “had better things to do” were also insincere in their intentions. If these people quickly responded with the expected ad hominem infused post it would demonstrate that they were likely monitoring this blog with intention to bully and harass those they cannot debate. This latter behaviour typifies what is referred to as “trolling”.
Interestingly enough, Massimo88 and 89 being the same individual is a distinct possibility as little has been shown for it not to be so.
Being that this bait easily lured the target, apparently I __DO__ have some idea of what I am talking about. The silent audience at large can decide amongst themselves which précis of my understanding is closer to the truth.
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
By the way, put the Thesaurus way, skippy, you don’t know the full meaning of the language you’re using…another sign of your Napoleonic Complex showing.
__Response__
That is yet another incorrect assessment on your part. If you believe that to be false, please feel free to demonstrate where I have misapplied any wording. I would gather that, like usual, this challenge will go unanswered (save for yet another display of grade school level name calling.)
massimo88 says:
November 13, 2012 at 3:35 am
One other thing, the tone of my responses where you or any of your ilk are involved is a poroduct of not suffering fools gladly, and you Bevis are a fool par-exellence! You’re an angry little troll, who will never ever get it. My hope is that people don’t think that all vertically challenged people aren’t as “anal expulsive” as you are…and I do mean expulsive. Crawl back under your bridge, you troll.
__Response__
You began your response by claiming you were not angry, yet in closing you elude that you are fully aware of the heated nature of your delivery. Even if we ignored the inferred tone, the choice of words alone clearly shows an underlying loss of temper. Usually people contradict themselves from post to post. Having contradiction within the same post is just too rich. Thank you, but you need not make it that easy even for those you are so contemptuous of.
Most of us, including stool-ejecting ones, can easily see who is behaving as an angry little troll. I am confident that they also do not think that you represent the majority of shorter-than-average men. Most of our shorter brothers, and most people in general, are quite comfortable in discussing issues without resorting to name-calling and personal insults.
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As usual, you have avoided acknowledgement of your errors, attempt to obfuscate them by deflection, and continue to employ what can only be described as childish name-calling and ad hominem attack.
This just makes it easy to illustrate how those who rationalize their situation will become increasingly hostile when confronted with the fallacies of their foundation. Please continue, as this is getting quite entertaining!
I’m 30 years old and 5’4″. I am worth 6 figures. No one cares. I wanted to commit suicide routinely during high school and college because women would turn me down so harshly just because of my size. I’ve seen how the Chinese will *very painfully* extend you by 1-3 inches over 6 months and I am seriously thinking about it. 5’6 or 5’7 has to be better!
I’m 30 years old and only 4 women have not openly dismissed me because of my height, and none of them knew about it until they had fallen in love with me over the Internet first.
I used to think that if I made lots of money, at least I could date people who wanted to use me for my money, but, hell, I’m worth 6 figures now and not even that is working out. I’m thinking (very seriously) about leaving the U.S. and moving to some 2nd world country where the guys are smaller.
I will right away snatch your rss feed as I can’t find your email subscription link or e-newsletter service. Do you have any? Kindly let me realize so that I may subscribe. Thanks.
Thats funny it’s always a SHORT woman putting on stilts and looking for a tall guy!!!
This way they can show him off to their girlfriends..if he got money that’s a big plus.
Anyway am 5’7″ and date strictly Asian women , they are used to short men.
I’m 5’6″ and recently compared Match experiences with a coworker and friend who is 6’4″. We are the same age, both make $100,000+ are involved in the same activities and generally have a very similar profile. I’ve been on Match for about 2 months and have emailed 118 different women. I write personalized emails that are genuine, and show that I have read their profile. I’ve received 5 responses and of those 3 actually complimented me on my email before saying I was not their type. The other two showed interest but have since fizzled out. He on the other hand has been on match for 2 weeks. He has sent only 3 emails (which he asked for my opinion on how to write) but received 2 responses and subsequent dates. He has received 15-20 unsolicited emails while I have received one. He has been winked at over 30 times and I have been winked at 3 times. He has numerous women “interested in him” while I have 2. Is the fact that aside from our height, we are really quite similar yet he gets tons of attention and I don’t frustrating? Yes, it is but is it the end of the world? No. I am convinced that eventually either through online dating or other means I will meet someone perfect for me its just a matter of time.
To “Feet Still Touching the Ground and Head Up My Ass,” let me put it this way Spanky, your anal expulsiveness in your missives alone demonstrates you possess a Napoleon Complex greater than any I’ve ever come across, and pompus too….and let’s not forget the persecution complex you carry around.
I’ll just bet that you suck the air out of a room when you enter. Additionally, you really don’t know much about research and the link and progression between studies.
If you respond to this by any chance, detail how research is conducted, and how results are properly presented in a paper for a peer reviewed journal.
One other thing, If you think I am going to waste my time going through your posts, paragraph by paragraph to prove my point, you are sadly mistaken…your writing alone demonstrates your Napoleonic Complex. You really are your own worst enemy. Get rid of the us verses them mind-set and maybe, just maybe you’ll find a little bit of joy in your life. This thing about people trying ti hi-jack the thread…WHO THE FUCK CARES!!! You’re like some little yappy lap dog, give it up and get a life.
@everybody
In reality, the systemic marginalizing of shorter-than-average men exists. Massimo88 attempted to obfuscate this fact by misrepresenting scientific research (a common ploy by those with an agenda). When this was exposed, the focus of his/her diatribes changed to one of pure hostility towards the poster that called out the fallacy.
This is what happens when propaganda is exposed for what it is. Notice how the perpetrator avoids admitting to the deliberate delivery of faulty arguments, and instead resorts to ad hominem attack and childish name-calling.
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In detail:
massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
To “Feet Still Touching the Ground and Head Up My Ass,” let me put it this way Spanky, your anal expulsiveness in your missives alone demonstrates you possess a Napoleon Complex greater than any I’ve ever come across, and pompus too….and let’s not forget the persecution complex you carry around.
__Answer__
Fortunately, it is not a stretch of the imagination to know that your “opinion” holds little sway with the general audience. As before, I discussed the subject without relying on any personal anecdote. How one can invent a “Napoleon Complex” as well as a “persecution complex” out of that further proves a habit of presumption in order to fulfill an agenda. Believe what you wish. No one has a directive to prove anything to you: we only have to prove it to the general audience.
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massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
I’ll just bet that you suck the air out of a room when you enter. Additionally, you really don’t know much about research and the link and progression between studies.
__Answer__
Lol. What? That doesn’t even make any sense.
“Research and the link between studies”? Nice try. You made the deliberate error of associating the much greater size of one test population with the results of a previous study. That was done to inflate the veracity of misrepresented findings you attributed to the original study. You are attempting to bury those “facts” by deflection (yet another common ploy by those who have been exposed).
To re-iterate: The initial study, done on 284 cases (as opposed to over 10,000 you “suggested”) to discover what factors were important to mate-selection. As part of that study, the factors that differed between the genders could be ascertained. You made the __mistake__ of thinking that the order in which these differing factors were listed meant that something in eleventh place was eleventh in both difference between genders and significance to the particular gender: Neither is likely true (nor did the researcher intend to suggest those things).
Furthermore, it can be shown via the retreat to repeated ad hominem and name-calling that you are aware of this error, and that it dissolves the personal agenda to create a false sense that the marginalizing of shorter-than-average men didn’t exist.
We leave it to the audience at large to decide who has the “Napoleon Complex”.
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massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
If you respond to this by any chance, detail how research is conducted, and how results are properly presented in a paper for a peer reviewed journal.
__Answer__
Pretty weak. You are attempting to attach an arduous condition to further response in hopes to deter it.
It was __you__ that made the error, so the onus would be on yourself to provide the support in how you “interpreted” the findings. The burden of proof that you “didn’t err” is yours.
This challenge to your opponent is a standard ploy to cast doubt on a conclusion. It was only necessary to show you had erred. To that end, Occams Razor applies.
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massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
One other thing, If you think I am going to waste my time going through your posts, paragraph by paragraph to prove my point, you are sadly mistaken…
__Answer__
Even weaker: It’s not because you don’t “want to”, you do not go through each post because you __CAN’T__ prove your point.
Furthermore, since you resort to disparaging the character of your opponent instead of this, it is apparent that you will extend effort. If you could, you would at least attempt to prove one or two of the issues that were pointed out. Instead, you resort to the expected adolescent behaviour of those who attempt to bully their “point”, rather than admit fault.
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massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
your writing alone demonstrates your Napoleonic Complex. You really are your own worst enemy.
__Answer__
No. If you apply the meaning of “Napoleonic Complex” you will see that it necessarily must have an element of “overly aggressive” behaviour. We have discussed the topic with alacrity and thoroughness where possible. That is to do the topic justice.
When people present faulty arguments to support false claims (such as downplaying the existence of systemic marginalizing of shorter-than-average men) it often requires this amount of effort. If a lot of communication was required, it was because of the amount of propaganda it had to deal with. Responses to your posts are not “overly aggressive” and hence not a product of a “Napoleonic Complex”.
In fact, the amount of name-calling and personal attack you resort to is far more a demonstration of being “overly aggressive”.
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massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
Get rid of the us verses them mind-set and maybe, just maybe you’ll find a little bit of joy in your life.
__Answer__
Nice try.
The “Us vs. Them” mind-set was an agenda of the “ILA” set of avatars. In fact, we made it very clear that there was no animosity between Shorter-than-average men and Taller-than-average women, or between Shorter-than-Average men and women in general. That was an invention by ILA-et-al in order to create a division.
Joy in my life? I appreciate your concern, but I do have a lot of it. Everyone could use more though. Unfortunately, sometimes watching someone come off his or her hinges like you do actually adds to the joy (There’s a bit of devilish fun in that.)
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massimo88 says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:29 am
This thing about people trying ti hi-jack the thread…WHO THE FXXK CARES!!! You’re like some little yappy lap dog, give it up and get a life.
__Answer__
Who cares? LOL. Apparently __YOU__ do. You have brought this up on numerous occasions far past the point of it being in this thread.
We have already demonstrated how those past attempts at hijacking were exactly that, and why they do not have a place in this discussion. You seem to be more “upset” about it than ILA-et-al were. Even so, whether you care or not is moot.
Yappy Dog? Please. Who sounds more like the proverbial barking miniature?
However, diminutive canines do have their place here. Your frequent pointless posts that are really just attempts to personally injure someone who pointed out your fallacies show that a juvenile mindset cannot face reality.
You like to __believe__ that the unfounded prejudice towards short-than-average men is minimal. The evidence (that includes the various experiences of shorter-than-average men here) paints a different picture. Pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away.
If you would put aside your campaign to harm those that disagree with you (not only because it doesn’t really affect me, but because it really does hurt you’re your “argument” and you) you might realize that. Bark all you want. There is no bite in your “missives”.
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@everybody
In reality, the systemic marginalizing of shorter-than-average men exists. Massimo88 attempted to obfuscate this fact by misrepresenting scientific research (a common ploy by those with an agenda). When this was exposed, the focus of his/her diatribes changed to one of pure hostility towards the poster that called out the fallacy.
This is what happens when propaganda is exposed for what it is. Notice how the perpetrator avoids admitting to the deliberate delivery of faulty arguments, and instead resorts to ad hominem attack and childish name-calling.
Both sides are sort of right.
There is some form of discrimination towards short men, albeit seems relegated to the private and the romantic aspects of life. There’s no, or has not been in history, anything coming remotely close to sexual and racial discrimination. I don’t think the ratio of short men in congress or directive boards across the country is that small in relation to average or tall men, nor there’s any history of short men not being afforded basic political or civil rights and so on.
I mean, yes, you’re not hot for the current aesthetic standards of society. It’s really shitty, you lost the genetic lottery, I’m sorry, but that’s about it.
The concept of beauty, well, you can’t hold that against people, when I hear that dove ‘every woman is beautiful’ bit, I find it absurd: if being found beautiful is a right, if everyone is beautiful, there’s no such thing as beauty, the entire concept goes down the drain. Of course, everyone is beautiful to someone, but not everyone is beautiful for a common, widespread society standard.
@Anne
That’s a much better approach to the issue. However, there are some points, which need to be addressed.
In summary, the prejudice is based on a desire to compensate for feelings of inadequacy in the beholder. Focusing on the “concept” of beauty only attempts to deflect from the irrationality of assigning a threshold based on a socially broadcasted value (average height). That is essentially “peer pressure”, and as manifested is no different than any other engineered prejudice (such as ethnic intolerance.)
@ Everybody:
The marginalizing is far more severe online than it is in real life. That is because shorter-than-average men (and men in general for that matter) have more control of the situation outside. The online world allows people to create barriers (often self defeating barriers too) that don’t necessarily exist in the physical world. It’s not easy, but a lot easier out there.
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Anne says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm
Both sides are sort of right.
__Answer__
While a diplomatic position can be good, there really is no validity in the side that supports heightism.
To say that it’s right because it isn’t beautiful is really a __circular argument__. The question is about how women seem to think that men below a certain height (or even below the quoted national average) are “un-beautiful” enough to drop out of consideration. That can’t be answered with simply restating the condition in other terms (as in “well, it’s un-beautiful”).
The cut-off is essentially related to a value (x inches below average height) that isn’t as apparent to the casual observer as one would think (the distribution around the mean is several inches either way). It’s a learned response that is basically media driven.
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Anne says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm
There is some form of discrimination towards short men, albeit seems relegated to the private and the romantic aspects of life. There’s no, or has not been in history, anything coming remotely close to sexual and racial discrimination.
__Answer__
The focus of this discussion __IS__ exactly on the private and romantic aspects of life.
If there appears to be no documented history of state sanctioned discrimination (such as there has been for gender or ethnic bias) it doesn’t mean such tort isn’t there. Both the immorality of and damage caused by the prejudice exist regardless of past legislation or record. In reality, the discrimination of shorter-than-average men happens outside of the “private and romantic”. Though not to the degree of outright shunning (as it does so frequently in online dating), in society at large.
As a comparison, consider that it is only within, what, the last 100 years that women gained the official right to vote in America. Yet it was a long time before they were able to work in traditionally male roles. Today, though narrowed, the wage-gap between genders for equal occupation still exists. The laws “say” it should be equal. But it is not. A similar evolution exists for ethnicity bias. Should we stop the movement for equality because, well, that’s the way it is? I’m sorry it sucks? (That’s what the dismissal to “status quo” is.)
If you don’t think it comes close to ethnic discrimination, try the usual thought experiment: Replace:
__“No shorter-than-average men responders”
with
__“No responders”
Better yet, have posters come on a thread about ethnic intolerance to ridicule any who point it out by calling them all sorts of names and being proud of the prejudice.
LOL. Wait a minute, your right! You __Don’t__ see that nearly as much as you do on “shorter-than-average men” intolerance threads. I’m not exaggerating. Have a look at this thread alone. Do you think this would be permissible had it been about an ethnic group?
So, the truth is that the prejudice some women have against “shorter-than-average men” is far greater than most want to admit. Accepting “Status Quo” is to rely on the “perfect solution fallacy” (as in “since you aren’t achieving a perfect solution, we’ll leave it as is”). That’s a cop-out.
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Anne says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm
I don’t think the ratio of short men in congress or directive boards across the country is that small in relation to average or tall men, nor there’s any history of short men not being afforded basic political or civil rights and so on.
__Answer__
The disparity in the business world is not “that small”, but no one said it was. However, if you don’t think it exists in an appreciable form, well, you’d be wrong.
The ratio isn’t as noticeable, because, the selection process of congress or leadership boards very likely have a lesser degree of juvenile attitudes than, say, some person basing a potential mate with the caveat that the candidate has to have certain attributes that will be seen as a trophy to impress their rivals. (Lol. At least we hope so, for the sake of business and government.)
Nonetheless, height discrimination exists in the boardrooms and congress halls (remember that part about “apparent” history?) Here’s a link to a study if you need more details on it:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1344817
(There’s button to download the pdf on the page.)
An important thing to point out here too is the importance of __providing a more appropriate comparison__. While shorter men are afforded “basic” political and civil “rights”. This cannot be construed to mean that they generally have close to the same opportunity as taller men in regards to employment (read that paper if you do not believe me.)
“Afforded rights” are not the same as having real opportunity.
When you consider just how relatively small the private and romantic “opportunity” gets (especially online) for shorter men, you will understand that the marginalizing is far greater than most want to admit. When that the marginalizing becomes pure exclusion (that would be the “no shorter-than-x-height you see that a lot), can we still think that it’s just a minor issue? (Or, that since “rights are afforded” that “opportunity” is near balance?)
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Anne says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm
I mean, yes, you’re not hot for the current aesthetic standards of society. It’s really shitty, you lost the genetic lottery, I’m sorry, but that’s about it.
__Answer__
This is the same old circular argument. If we were to use the excuse of current aesthetic standards, we could apply it to any prejudice: It isn’t beautiful because it isn’t beautiful.
The whole point is __the IRRATIONAL basis of the judgment__. The truth is that the “aesthetic” is largely driven by the media, and perverted by those who feel “out-competed” and need to compensate in the eyes of peers. Wanting a perceived “trophy” is not a mature approach to pair bonding.
Really. “Genetic lottery.”
This is a __common misconception__ that really needs to be addressed. Adult height is largely associated with diet in the early years of development. Although genetics play a part, most people would grow to the average if fed the same nutrients as the average person. In fact, most of the “height” is in the lengthening of the limbs. The torso is about the same length. Don’t believe it? Go and sit beside a “shorter than average” guy. Chances are he’ll be as tall as the average guy when seated.
The diet in those early years is the main factor. It’s not as “genetic” as you think. Shorter-than-average men don’t necessarily produce shorter-than-average children any more than any one else. That is the misconception that lurks in the minds of many.
Even of one didn’t before, one should be able to see how heightism is very much like ethnic intolerance by now. Neither is really due to any flaw in the object of revulsion. Neither is morally acceptable. Neither can be dismissed with a plea to “status quo”. Both are a product of self-image issues within the beholder.
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Anne says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm
The concept of beauty, well, you can’t hold that against people, when I hear that dove ‘every woman is beautiful’ bit, I find it absurd: if being found beautiful is a right,…
__Answer__
This is just a deflection. It’s like examining the dynamics of “a vehicle” instead of how the vehicle is being driven. No one is holding the “concept of beauty” against anyone (Really, that’s just a straw-man argument as no one is arguing the “concept of beauty”).
It is the concept that a man who is x-number-of-inches beneath the average value is suddenly “un-beautiful” to the point that they are no longer considered as a potential mate that is criticized.
It is purely media driven and the media is very effective on those insecure in their own image. Don’t think the media is that strong? Well, ever notice how the fashion industry does well by telling people what they should be wearing (because if you’re not, your so “last year” and therefore not part of the in-crowd). Don’t think it’s got a direct correlation to insecurity? Have a look at those who are the most “loud and proud” about heightism. You will see a trend.
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Anne says:
December 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm
…if everyone is beautiful, there’s no such thing as beauty, the entire concept goes down the drain. Of course, everyone is beautiful to someone, but not everyone is beautiful for a common, widespread society standard.
__Answer__
Logically, that doesn’t have to be so.
That can only be true if beauty is necessarily a relative value. If not, every member of a population only has to surpass a threshold, and therefore be considered a positive value for that measure.
In respects to how heightists see things, height is related to a common widespread society standard: If a man passes that height they are “height”iful. Although, in reality they are actually doing what you suggest. Heightists basically decide that only those surpassing the 96-th percentile (or around it) of this very visible attribute are “height”iful. Can you not see how this is just “trophy”-hunting to impress peers?
This statement: “of course, everyone is beautiful to someone”
… yet you promoted the notion that shorter-than-average men have lost the genetic [sic] lottery).
The truth is that the opinion of the height of a man, relative to the average height, is just a socially engineered affinity. It is not driven by a direct personal aesthetic affinity. Intolerance to a shorter-than-average height happens when one is overly self-conscience of their perceived image in the eyes of their peers. (Remember the part about “loud an proud” about heightism.)
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@Anne
That’s a much better approach to the issue. However, there are some points, which need to be addressed.
In summary, the prejudice is based on a desire to compensate for feelings of inadequacy in the beholder. Focusing on the “concept” of beauty only attempts to deflect from the irrationality of assigning a threshold based on a socially broadcasted value (average height). That is essentially “peer pressure”, and as manifested is no different than any other engineered prejudice (such as ethnic intolerance.)
@ Everybody:
The marginalizing is far more severe online than it is in real life. That is because shorter-than-average men (and men in general for that matter) have more control of the situation outside. The online world allows people to create barriers (often self defeating barriers too) that don’t necessarily exist in the physical world. It’s not easy, but a lot easier out there.
Dude, you could teach a class on the subject…
I wasn’t being diplomatic, it’s actually what I think. The people who say there is some sort of height discrimination have point, but also the people who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point.
It is a circular argument of sorts, because it can’t not be.
Beauty is one of those concept we will never fully know, it’s not a science, there are so many factors which determine the concept, for an individual and for a society, we will never know them all and never make an equation of it.
It’s like love: ‘I’m in love because I’m in love’ is a circular argument, but it is also the only true thing we can say about it. Of course a million and one reasons, (past experiences, parenting, psyche, hormones, projections, anthropology, society, media and so on) why you love one person and not another can be found and analyzed trying to make a paradigm out of it, but there will always be a bit of a mystery, something we don’t know about it which inevitably screws up the equation making it flawed.
Same goes for beauty at large: why I and we (meaning an individual and a society, two different but connected things) find a piece of art, a song, a person, a poem, a dress beautiful is the sum of so many things…I could list a billion, but can’t list them all. Some people, not me, but some people, would even mention god among them.
Of course the media, our very fast paced, oligarchic, dominating media outlets play a role. But the arts have always done that in history: building a vicious (or virtuous, depending on your take) circle of depicting, but also creating people’s idea of beauty. Our modern version of entertainment/art, sometimes one can’t, or is not allowed, to tell them apart is kind of sucky, I’ll give you that.
And of course insecurities play a role as well. That’s love, some say: finding the person who’s neurosis better compliment yours.
But that’s not all: beauty and love are not all media influence and insecurities, there are so many pieces of the puzzle, complex and unreachable pieces of the puzzle that make the circular argument the only possible one. Everything else is just men claiming to know what the don’t understand, it’s simplification and arrogance.
I took an aesthetics class last year and the first thing I was told is that we were going to spend a semester talking about something humanity doesn’t know and has no solution for.
And that goes for beauty and attraction.
The point is what behavior can you make a fault out of? I, as an adult voter, am accountable to my country and my peers to make the best rational possible choice I can make: I am at fault if I include personal aesthetic discriminatory preferences in my choice, it is my duty to do anything in my power to distinguish between the two things.
Same goes for a college admission director, same goes for a personnel manager and so on.
Including a personal aesthetic standards in these choices is a fault.
When choosing a partner, I am accountable to none but myself: I don’t have the duty to give a chance to anyone, but the people I want to give it to.
Of course it is discrimination: I discriminate by liking men better than women. If I were hiring someone this would be a negative, sexist type of discrimination. If I’m looking for a partner, you can formally call it discrimination, yes, but it is more like legitimately discriminating between who I want to date and who I don’t want to date. And it’s legitimate.
Can I tell you why? Where all my likes and dislikes, my must haves and my ‘I would prefer, but I’m open to’ come from? Not so much. I can tell you something about it, I can try to guess which ones are more of a personal corcky thing of mine and which ones are more society induced, I can make a few guesses with regards to the things that attract me because they remind me of my dad, but I can also list a few with absolutely no idea where they come from, I’m sure some of these things will stay forever and some will go and I’m also sure there are some things I like and dislike but never will be aware of.
But I’ll never have an equation for it, and mostly, I’m not at fault for searching for what I like in a partner.
I’m at fault for not hiring someone following an irrational (or rational, but intelligible) preference, not voting for him, not promoting, treating him badly socially, but not for rejecting him romantically. I owe nothing to a romantic suitor, not rationality, not even explanations, assuming I have them.
Now I would never say that I wouldn’t date anyone under 5’8”, that’s just too specific to be effective, it is plain stupid, it’s like saying I wouldn’t date anyone with an IQ under 129 or at least 78% of his head covered by hair…but I know very well that the men I like are usually smart, tall with large shoulders and have lots of hair, it’s not a requisite I force myself to enforce, I just know it by experience. May change, or it may not change, maybe there are going to be exceptions, maybe not. But I’m not at fault for it.
Now.. the ‘shorter than average’ bit. Of course what we call short is shorter than average, it’s a quantitative measurement: a small computer is a computer smaller than the average computer, a big coat is a coat bigger than the average coat. There’s no need to say it like that, it doesn’t sound nicer or more politically correct, it just sounds like using 3 words when you could use 1 word to say something with the exact same meaning.
I’m not saying there’s so such thing on actual discrimination, in society, representative politics or the workforce, of short men, you may be right on that one. But I wouldn’t compare it to gender or ethnic discrimination. It different nature, not necessarily better or less damaging, but surely different in nature. The kind of gender or ethnic discrimination we see left going on is the institutionalized aftermath of legal discrimination, this one, has a nature and a history of its one which is completely different; I wouldn’t compare them.
Anne, don’t even bother to try to reason with this moron. When it comes to someone having a Napoleon complex, this guy is second to none. He just doesn’t get it, and never will. Do yourself a favor and don’t feed the animal. He gives the rest of we vertically challenged individuals a bad name. Please we are not all insecure arrogant trolls.
@ Everyone:
I was hoping that there was something new, but the arguments presented just boil back down to a reliance on the circular argument of: “it’s beautiful because it’s beautiful”.
The other attempt was that “one has the right to choose whatever they want”. But that is just the usual “strawman” argument since the “ability to choose” has neither been questioned nor has any attempt been made to deny one of it.
@Anne:
Sorry. Your reasons are just a re-working of the standard deflections. Really. Read on.
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Detailed Answers
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Dude, you could teach a class on the subject…
__Answer__
Lol. Thanks. I thought I was. ;-)
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
I wasn’t being diplomatic, it’s actually what I think. The people who say there is some sort of height discrimination have point, but also the people who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point.
__Answer__
Well, those two groups you just described are neither mutually exclusive, nor even bifurcate the whole population, so they don’t represent “two sides”. I’m not mincing terminology here. It is important to define what one really means as the division.
Yes. There is definitely “some sort” of height discrimination going on (and, as it has been demonstrated, both in the “personal and private” situation as well as the societal situation at large).
The ability to enforce a policy doesn’t negate its violation. It has already been shown that policing discrimination in hiring practices are largely rendered toothless by the “right to hire based on nothing but a whim”. Does that make an underlying discriminatory act a valid “point”?
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
It is a circular argument of sorts, because it can’t not be.
Beauty is one of those concept we will never fully know… …bit of a mystery, something we don’t know about it which inevitably screws up the equation making it flawed.
__Answer__
That is merely evading the reason why circular arguments are impotent.
The retreat to the complexities of the universe, the human condition, the weather, etc… is deflecting from the truth that this prejudice is a learned behaviour. The outcome of the roll of a balanced die is essentially random. However, a weighted one, by definition will favour certain outcomes over another. One cannot say the “randomness” of one element of an equation is the cause when they are deliberately weighting another.
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Same goes for beauty at large: why I and we (meaning an individual and a society, two different but connected things) find a piece of art, a song, a person, a poem, a dress beautiful is the sum of so many things… … among them.
__Answer__
Anne! That’s just hyperbole based on the circular argument, but it does serve help us all be reminded of an important point.
Revulsion to an attribute (that’s what a “height restriction” really is) is not about the increasing degrees of affinity (as in finding beauty in something). It’s really about finding something so repulsive, you will not accept it. Consider that most heightists base their definition of this revulsion on the socially promoted measure of average height. This is hardly a product of “randomness” or some ethereal mechanism.
In essence, one is applying “Argumentum ad Ignorantiam” (The plea to ignorance): “If we don’t know all the elements, then no part of the equation is known”. This is a fallacy. Really. Think about it.
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Of course the media, our very fast paced, oligarchic, dominating media outlets play a role. But the arts have always done that in history: building a vicious (or virtuous, depending on your take) circle of depicting, but also creating people’s idea of beauty. Our modern version of entertainment/art, sometimes one can’t, or is not allowed, to tell them apart is kind of sucky, I’ll give you that.
__Answer__
Yes. Excellent. We have an accord that the media (archaically and presently) plays a role by its contemporary definition of beauty.
You postulate that sometimes one can’t (or is not allowed) to tell what is personal or vicarious in that regard. Does that alone not contradict this notion of ultimately ethereal causation for heightism?
The truth is that, barring those with severe cognitive abilities; we all have the conscious ability to see the difference. Succumbing to peer pressure is voluntary. In general, children are far more impressionable than seasoned adults to this kind of “thought control”. Do we have a better understanding of the mindset of a heightist now?
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
And of course insecurities play a role as well. That’s love, some say: finding the person who’s neurosis better compliment yours.
__Answer__
Lol. Isn’t that really more towards the definition of “co-dependence”?
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
But that’s not all: beauty and love are not all media influence and insecurities, there are so many pieces of the puzzle, complex and unreachable pieces of the puzzle that make the circular argument the only possible one. Everything else is just men claiming to know what the don’t understand, it’s simplification and arrogance.
__Answer__
The circular argument is not the only possible solution (and it isn’t even a solution.)
Again, see the part about “Argumentum ad Ignorantiam” above. Not knowing the values of all the elements doesn’t mean we cannot understand some of the others. In regards to insecurity and how people compensate for it, the behaviour is easy to see and explain.
Claiming that the more significant cause is a hereto-unknown factor only seeks to __ignore__ what we can see and measure. I think Occam’s Razor was mentioned in a previous post. The principle also applies here.
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
I took an aesthetics class last year and the first thing I was told is that we were going to spend a semester talking about something humanity doesn’t know and has no solution for.
__Answer__
The things they teach in college these days! Lol.
Interesting.
You would think that one thing that would be poignant in a course on aesthetics is that “beauty” in the human form will rarely manifest (outside of assistance from societal influences of course) as something that would __exclude__ a trait that is immutable, involuntary, does not hint at underlying disease, or a genetic flaw (covered in the previous response), or has no bearing on a person’s direct abilities.
This alone should preclude aversion to shorter-than-average men as being something that is part of an innate sense of beauty.
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
And that goes for beauty and attraction.
The point is what behavior can you make a fault out of? I, as an adult voter, am accountable to my country and my peers to make the best rational possible choice I can make: I am at fault if I include personal aesthetic discriminatory preferences in my choice, it is my duty to do anything in my power to distinguish between the two things.
Same goes for a college admission director, same goes for a personnel manager and so on…
…Including a personal aesthetic standards in these choices is a fault.
When choosing a partner, I am accountable to none but myself: I don’t have the duty to give a chance to anyone, but the people I want to give it to…
…Including a personal aesthetic standards in these choices is a fault.
When choosing a partner, I am accountable to none but myself: I don’t have the duty to give a chance to anyone, but the people I want to give it to…
…Now I would never say that I wouldn’t date anyone under 5’8”, that’s just too specific to be effective, it is plain stupid, it’s like saying I wouldn’t date anyone with an IQ under 129 or at least 78% of his head covered by hair…but I know very well that the men I like are usually smart, tall with large shoulders and have lots of hair, it’s not a requisite I force myself to enforce, I just know it by experience. May change, or it may not change, maybe there are going to be exceptions, maybe not. But I’m not at fault for it.
__Answer__
Most importantly, no one has claimed that the act of prejudice is __not__ discrimination. That has never been in question. To remonstrate on that is just deflecting from how “discriminating” based on how far below or above a man’s adult height is from the average is rooted in the observer’s self-esteem issues (and not that of the observed.)
Secondly, one needs to understand the differences between legitimacy, legality and ethics. They are not the same things.
However, they share an attribute that reveals why such contrived objection is moot. It is that all three are subject to who presides over the decision.
Validity for any of the three can be decided by oneself, or by the observer (We are purposely not including combination there-of, a random unrelated party, or the empty set for those who wish to argue silly points).
In any case, be it casting a vote, deciding what’s for dinner, deciding what to wear, or electing a life-partner: There is YOUR evaluation and the OBSERVER’S evaluation. NO one has denied your right to decide, or decided your subsequent decision’s validity in legitimacy, legality or ethical grounds.
Essentially, what you are cross about is that OTHERS are applying their own evaluation of your actions. CURIOUS is that not. You do not agree with people casting judgment (based on logical evaluation too) on an attribute (your decision and it’s underlying thought process) WITHIN your control. Yet you do not feel any need to examine what a heightist is doing when they evaluate people for an attribute that ISN’T in those people’s control.
Note too, that one claims that these are one’s own decision, yet frequently retreats to “the unknown” when they feel they are being challenged.
One is always free to make their own decisions, but few (if any) are free from being evaluated based on those decisions. Why do you think that those who promote heightism will try any tactic (be it faulty logic, dismissals, deflection, and all sorts of ad hominem attack) to shut down discussion on this?
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Now.. the ‘shorter than average’ bit. Of course what we call short is shorter than average, it’s a quantitative measurement: a small computer is a computer smaller than the average computer, a big coat is a coat bigger than the average coat. There’s no need to say it like that, it doesn’t sound nicer or more politically correct, it just sounds like using 3 words when you could use 1 word to say something with the exact same meaning.
__Answer__
Firstly, it is labelled as “shorter-than-average” to pre-empt those who would facetiously take advantage of the relative vagueness of the term, “shorter” to segue into loosely related minutia. Sometimes vagueness is conveniently applied (as in not being clear on a definition so that some wiggle room is allowed in explaining oneself…) It isn’t useful here.
Secondly, it is to make the clear distinction that heightists are concerned about the height of the man relative to the AVERAGE and not to themselves (you will see women 5 ft 0 demanding ONLY taller-than-average).
So, let’s not forget that postings are not only for a single person or even similar group of persons. Understand?
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
I’m not saying there’s so such thing on actual discrimination, in society, representative politics or the workforce, of short men, you may be right on that one. But I wouldn’t compare it to gender or ethnic discrimination. It different nature, not necessarily better or less damaging, but surely different in nature.
__Answer__
An “inconvenient truth” about heightism is that it is __really no different than sexism or ethnic intolerance__. All are promoted through socially engineered protocol. All are tied to insecurity in the beholder. Heightists, or those who defend the behaviour, are always quick to defend their brand of bias by saying it is “natural”, “innate” or “based on some ethereal factors that can’t be quantified”.
All of this is familiar to the nature of any prejudice. It’s not pretty, and that is why heightists quickly resort to pure hostility to towards any exposure or criticism. Do you think those who hold the other behaviours react any differently?
It is not different in nature: it is precisely the same.
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Anne says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm
The kind of gender or ethnic discrimination we see left going on is the institutionalized aftermath of legal discrimination, this one, has a nature and a history of its one which is completely different; I wouldn’t compare them.
__Answer__
It has been clearly established that the nature of all three (gender, ethnic and height) prejudice are the same. So no, there is no difference in “nature”.
The history differs because very few societies (past or current) are not patriarch societies. Even though there is height bias in business and government (a case that you original thought was literally non-existent), men have far less discrimination towards height than women do (this is pretty self-evident. Lol.) Hence, actual legislation for gender and ethnic bias are likely to have occurred, while height-based ones will not. That’s pretty easy to understand.
Since neither condition can be applied validly, your reasoning cannot be used to deny comparison of the three prejudices.
Q.E.D.
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@ Everyone:
I was hoping that there was something new, but the arguments presented just boil back down to a reliance on the circular argument of: “it’s beautiful because it’s beautiful”.
The other attempt was that “one has the right to choose whatever they want”. But that is just the usual “strawman” argument since the “ability to choose” has neither been questioned nor has any attempt been made to deny one of it.
@Anne:
Sorry. Your reasons are just a re-working of the standard deflections. Really.
massimo88 says:
December 16, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Anne, don’t even bother to try to reason with this moron. When it comes to someone having a Napoleon complex, this guy is second to none. He just doesn’t get it, and never will. Do yourself a favor and don’t feed the animal. He gives the rest of we vertically challenged individuals a bad name. Please we are not all insecure arrogant trolls.
__Answer__
Lol. Still attempting to “attack the poster” instead of “the post”. Just what was the definition of troll again?
At least try to successfully debate ONE of the criticisms of your points… Oh wait, I forgot. You can’t because you purposely misrepresented information to support a false claim. Now, where is that definition of moron.
Correction:
__“No responders”
should read:
__”No responders of [your choice of marginalized ethnicity here]”
Well, those two groups you just described are neither mutually exclusive, nor even bifurcate the whole population, so they don’t represent “two sides”. I’m not mincing terminology here. It is important to define what one really means as the division.
Yes. There is definitely “some sort” of height discrimination going on (and, as it has been demonstrated, both in the “personal and private” situation as well as the societal situation at large).
The ability to enforce a policy doesn’t negate its violation. It has already been shown that policing discrimination in hiring practices are largely rendered toothless by the “right to hire based on nothing but a whim”. Does that make an underlying discriminatory act a valid “point”?
= = = = =
I was referring to the two sides I’ve seen expressed here, obviously, all the rest is name calling and self-pitying, or a simple listing of all the other factors that are perceived as unattractive by most potential partners, so I didn’t pay much attention to it.
They seem somewhat mutually exclusive in this particular debate.
Yes, that’s a much larger argument: discrimination in hiring has to be proven, and it is much harder to do so than to prove wrongful termination. But we’re not discussing laws and their effectiveness here, we’re discussing, I believe, ethics, what kind of act is unethical. I think we all agree that basing the decision to hire someone on their gender, ethnicity, or perceived hotness (barring a few professions, such as theater and cinema, public relations and so on) is unethical and damaging to your fellow members of society.
We all agree that this kind of discrimination is unethical, what we don’t agree on is that discriminating on perceived hotness when choosing a partner is an unethical act.
That is merely evading the reason why circular arguments are impotent.
The retreat to the complexities of the universe, the human condition, the weather, etc… is deflecting from the truth that this prejudice is a learned behaviour. The outcome of the roll of a balanced die is essentially random. However, a weighted one, by definition will favour certain outcomes over another. One cannot say the “randomness” of one element of an equation is the cause when they are deliberately weighting another.
= = = = =
See, circular arguments are indeed weak. But taking only one tiny factor of an argument and portraying it the sole cause of an outcome is not only just as a weak, is plain wrong.
I disagree:
– On the semantics of equating ‘finding something hot or not hot’ with prejudice. Prejudice implies attaching some random characteristic to an external factor (ei the color of your skin means you’re stupid), not simply deeming that characteristic unbeautiful, externally unattractive to you. If I think someone’s pimples mean they’re unclean, that’s a prejudice, if I simply don’t want to fuck that someone because I’m not into spotty skin physically, that’s not a prejudice. It’s a ‘judice’, without the pre-, of someone’s beauty.
I’m sure there are people who attach random moral characteristics to shortness, that’d be a prejudice, but it’s not what we’re talking about here
– That ‘assessing beauty’ is completely a learned behavior. Truth? Says who? I’m assuming you, but that’s precisely what I was counter arguing before: a tiny element of a learned behavior inside a MUCH larger equation an entirely learned behavior does not make.
Anne! That’s just hyperbole based on the circular argument, but it does serve help us all be reminded of an important point.
Revulsion to an attribute (that’s what a “height restriction” really is) is not about the increasing degrees of affinity (as in finding beauty in something). It’s really about finding something so repulsive, you will not accept it. Consider that most heightists base their definition of this revulsion on the socially promoted measure of average height. This is hardly a product of “randomness” or some ethereal mechanism.
In essence, one is applying “Argumentum ad Ignorantiam” (The plea to ignorance): “If we don’t know all the elements, then no part of the equation is known”. This is a fallacy. Really. Think about it.
= = = = =
Is it?
2(x+z)+3+x(z*x)=A = A=2+3 …Does it?
Because that’s what you’re doing. Taking the only side you care for of the equation (not simply the only one we know, but the only one you want to consider), learned behaviors, and portraying it as the sole factor of an outcome. That’s not simply a fallacy..it’s a fallacious system.
I think you exaggerate in describing something as repulsion. There may be some instances of repulsion, as in finding something so unbeautiful to a degree of repulsion (pimply faces for me), but generally it is just a characteristic that is not found beautiful.
I assume that when internet dating, people sit down, think long and hard about what they usually like and dislike and then they make their more important likes into requirements. None goes to a bar with a measuring tape accepting drinks only from men above 5’8’’, but the structure of internet dating forces you to turn preferences that usually don’t need to be spoken (you just go with them) into written down requirements.
Yes. Excellent. We have an accord that the media (archaically and presently) plays a role by its contemporary definition of beauty.
You postulate that sometimes one can’t (or is not allowed) to tell what is personal or vicarious in that regard. Does that alone not contradict this notion of ultimately ethereal causation for heightism?
The truth is that, barring those with severe cognitive abilities; we all have the conscious ability to see the difference. Succumbing to peer pressure is voluntary. In general, children are far more impressionable than seasoned adults to this kind of “thought control”. Do we have a better understanding of the mindset of a heightist now?
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Well, yes, the media plays a part. Actually my postulate wasn’t about us not being able to tell the difference between personal and ethereal (which often we aren’t, btw) It was about the difference between entertainment, which includes sensationalism for the sake of it, and art: sometimes they’re one in the same, sometimes you can very easily tell the difference, sometimes you can’t.
Think any random sit-com, think Piss Christ, or fashion in general.
What I argue against is equating art, or even entertainment, with peer pressure. We are the arts and the arts are us. The portray us, while they make us. There’s a difference between smoking a cigarette in junior high because otherwise you’re uncool and the role the arts have played in history and still play in the fact that we find symmetry beautiful, for example.
The circular argument is not the only possible solution (and it isn’t even a solution.)
Again, see the part about “Argumentum ad Ignorantiam” above. Not knowing the values of all the elements doesn’t mean we cannot understand some of the others. In regards to insecurity and how people compensate for it, the behaviour is easy to see and explain.
Claiming that the more significant cause is a hereto-unknown factor only seeks to __ignore__ what we can see and measure. I think Occam’s Razor was mentioned in a previous post. The principle also applies here.
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Not knowing all the elements and how the interact, lets us, of course see some of the elements, namely:
– Learned behaviors, the arts, the connection between the arts and the media, past experiences, history, individual subconscious, mass subconscious, parenting, hormones, anthropology, personal insecurities, projections, socio-economic class, narcissism, geography, and so on
All of these elements and much more make us and they make our individual, and societal, perception of beauty, with regards to height and everything else. We can of course intuitively see the presence of learned behaviors in there ( as we can see them in sexual orientation, choosing a profession, being clumsy, etc…all we do, all we think and all we are has elements of learned behaviors: all of it. ), but identifying them as the main point, expecting their valence in the equation to be at all measurable, is not going with occam’s razor on the matter, it is being so simplistic it’s wrong.
And equating learned behaviors with peer pressure is even more wrong.
You would think that one thing that would be poignant in a course on aesthetics is that “beauty” in the human form will rarely manifest (outside of assistance from societal influences of course) as something that would __exclude__ a trait that is immutable, involuntary, does not hint at underlying disease, or a genetic flaw (covered in the previous response), or has no bearing on a person’s direct abilities.
This alone should preclude aversion to shorter-than-average men as being something that is part of an innate sense of beauty.
= = = = =
Well, the concept of beauty in the human form never manifests itself without societal influences. Beauty in the human connotation of it is a cultural concept and therefore never presented itself aside from the paradigm of societal influences.
Most of what has been found beautiful through history had no connection with a person’s direct abilities: symmetry, just to name one, the first trait in the determining human beauty has no connection whatsoever with one’s abilities.
Most importantly, no one has claimed that the act of prejudice is __not__ discrimination. That has never been in question. To remonstrate on that is just deflecting from how “discriminating” based on how far below or above a man’s adult height is from the average is rooted in the observer’s self-esteem issues (and not that of the observed.)
Secondly, one needs to understand the differences between legitimacy, legality and ethics. They are not the same things.
However, they share an attribute that reveals why such contrived objection is moot. It is that all three are subject to who presides over the decision.
Validity for any of the three can be decided by oneself, or by the observer (We are purposely not including combination there-of, a random unrelated party, or the empty set for those who wish to argue silly points).
In any case, be it casting a vote, deciding what’s for dinner, deciding what to wear, or electing a life-partner: There is YOUR evaluation and the OBSERVER’S evaluation. NO one has denied your right to decide, or decided your subsequent decision’s validity in legitimacy, legality or ethical grounds.
Essentially, what you are cross about is that OTHERS are applying their own evaluation of your actions. CURIOUS is that not. You do not agree with people casting judgment (based on logical evaluation too) on an attribute (your decision and it’s underlying thought process) WITHIN your control. Yet you do not feel any need to examine what a heightist is doing when they evaluate people for an attribute that ISN’T in those people’s control.
Note too, that one claims that these are one’s own decision, yet frequently retreats to “the unknown” when they feel they are being challenged.
One is always free to make their own decisions, but few (if any) are free from being evaluated based on those decisions. Why do you think that those who promote heightism will try any tactic (be it faulty logic, dismissals, deflection, and all sorts of ad hominem attack) to shut down discussion on this?
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I’ve spoken already on how I don’t believe what we’re examination can be defined as a prejudice.
I believe we’re talking about ethics here, and a very loose meaning of legitimacy, maybe.
And of course, when I’m the one talking, it is implied I’m presenting my own observations, through my own perceptions of ethics, just as you are doing.
The thing is, I’ll repeat myself, when it comes to choosing a president, I owe it to society, if I want to be ethical, for my decision and parameters to be fully rational, fully known and fully fair. The discrimination I make (discrimination in the neutral sense) has to be done on those trait that are relevant for the matter: preparation, intelligence, coherence, etc. I will discriminate between the prepared and the unprepared and since my decision will affect others I can’t afford the unknown or gut feelings to play a role.
When choosing a partner, the only one I owe something is myself and I will also discriminate on those traits that are relevant for the matter: discriminating between what attracts me and what doesn’t is relevant in this case (completely aside from what that person has done to earn that attractiveness…I’m not grading him on a ‘get pretty’ class) and since I only owe my decision to myself, I needn’t know precisely why I find a person hot or not, even assuming I could.
An “inconvenient truth” about heightism is that it is __really no different than sexism or ethnic intolerance__. All are promoted through socially engineered protocol. All are tied to insecurity in the beholder. Heightists, or those who defend the behaviour, are always quick to defend their brand of bias by saying it is “natural”, “innate” or “based on some ethereal factors that can’t be quantified”.
All of this is familiar to the nature of any prejudice. It’s not pretty, and that is why heightists quickly resort to pure hostility to towards any exposure or criticism. Do you think those who hold the other behaviours react any differently?
It is not different in nature: it is precisely the same.
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I disagree. The entire economies and social structures of western societies were based on gender discrimination. And somewhat, albeit in different manners throughout 1st and 2nd world countries, on ethnic discrimination.
These discriminations have been the very base of our families, workforce and economic systems. It doesn’t all come down to some petty insecurities: there have been structural, not super structural, forces keeping these systems of slavery (women were slaves of sorts) going for centuries.
@Everyone:
When rebuttals become more and more filled with deflection, disambiguation and hyperbole, it is clear that there is little substance. Even convincing oneself increasingly becomes an exercise of evasion rather than enlightenment.
@Anne:
Really. The key point remains that heightism IS prejudice, and that the motivations behind it are easily identified. Furthermore, other factors do not exhibit, and cannot be “assumed” to exist in significant influence based solely on a mathematical ability to exist.
Continuing to evade via typical fallacy-based tactics now only serve to degrade one’s credibility as the fragility of one’s arguments have been clearly shown.
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In detail:
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I was referring to the two sides I’ve seen expressed here, obviously, all the rest is name calling and self-pitying, or a simple listing of all the other factors that are perceived as unattractive by most potential partners, so I didn’t pay much attention to it.
____Answer__
Lol. Relying on disambiguation are we now?
Most are aware you were referring to the “two sides here”, but you purposely elected to describe YOUR groups as:
__1: People who say there is some sort of height discrimination.
__2: People who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point.
(Yes, this is very clearly stated in the record)
Most are also aware that the criticism levied (and that you are trying to refute) is that you deliberately chose two groups that are described by DIFFERING variables (re-read the two vectors above as many times as required to confirm that this is indeed true).
People usually choose to improperly divide a group this way to provide “wiggle room” when their subsequent arguments are shown to be faulty. (“Oh… what I REALLY meant was…”) This is exactly what we see now.
No one (certainly not I, and you can check the posts above) took issue, in this context, that you didn’t address any of the things you now mention. You are misrepresenting (by inventing a criticism) in order to apply a refutation (a straw-man argument).
The point is that the two sides are:
__1: Those who support the prejudice of heightism.
__2: Those who do not support the prejudice of heightism.
(It is a prejudice: This will be proven again shortly.)
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
They seem somewhat mutually exclusive in this particular debate.
____Answer__
The sides, again, are:
__1: Those who support the prejudice of heightism.
__2: Those who do not support the prejudice of heightism.
These are mutually exclusive. If you wish to say that this is NOT the definition of the “sides” you are referring to, feel free to provide, in no uncertain terms, the definition of such “sides” and how they are “somewhat” mutually exclusive.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Yes, that’s a much larger argument: discrimination in hiring has to be proven, and it is much harder to do so than to prove wrongful termination. But we’re not discussing laws and their effectiveness here, we’re discussing, I believe, ethics, what kind of act is unethical.
____Answer__
Sorry, YOU introduced the notion, by suggesting, “The people who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point”. We merely brought it to your attention that the lack of efficacy in enforcement does not mitigate the tort.
Again, you are still ignoring the critical __condition__ of “ethics” (“legitimacy” and “legality” too). The evaluation of it is dependent on the evaluator. We’ve already mentioned this clearly. If one chooses to believe that some act is moral, that doesn’t mean that it is moral in the judgment of peers. It may not even be valid should the situation be reversed. This is largely why the circular argument of “it’s un-beautiful because it’s un-beautiful” is impotent.
As we have mentioned above, heightists DON’T want to entertain the notion that they are negatively judged for promoting a prejudice. It’s OK “in their minds” to judge others based on an involuntary, immutable and an essentially innocuous trait, but not OK for others to judge them on their own actions.
This is difficult to refute (well, really it can’t.) This is why one chooses to assail the definition of the act as something other than a “prejudice”, or, claim that it is due to some unknown factor that is out of their control.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
See, circular arguments are indeed weak. But taking only one tiny factor of an argument and portraying it the sole cause of an outcome is not only just as a weak, is plain wrong.
____Answer__
“See, circular arguments are indeed weak.”
Nice try. You are attempting to imply that you meant to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of circular arguments. The truth is that you were __employing them__, and you were called to task for it. The record clearly shows this, Anne.
“one tiny factor”
The tiny factor you reference is not tiny (of course, you can attempt to refute this by being deliberately vague, “oh… that’s not what I meant as the factor” lol) This is a sly attempt at dismissing the factor of “trophy hunting to compensate for low self-esteem” as minor. It is not.
The evidence that those who are very proud of their denigration of shorter-than-average men have common traits is very easy to discover. Furthermore, the way in which some of these proponents “defend” their prejudice (not just here, but any place where the topic appears online) has all the hallmarks of lower-self esteem. These include, but are not restricted to:
__1: The employment of false reasoning (“I love my heels” is a popular one.)
__2: Reliance on false stereotypes (“they have Napoleon Complexes.)
__3: Denial of personal influence (“it’s natural instinct”)
__4: Outright Hostility (“[place derogatory term here]”)
__5: Reliance on multiple fallacies in defense (“Straw man arguments”,”Plea to Ignorance”, etc.)
What one is trying to obfuscate here too, is that these “other” factors (those “oh so mysterious” ones) even if they existed, do not have anywhere near the influence of this single factor of “a need to compensate for a perceived self-image inadequacy”.
We will cover off these “mysterious” factors in context briefly (well, relatively briefly)
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
On the semantics of equating ‘finding something hot or not hot’ with prejudice. Prejudice implies attaching some random characteristic to an external factor (ei the color of your skin means you’re stupid), not simply deeming that characteristic unbeautiful, externally unattractive to you. If I think someone’s pimples mean they’re unclean, that’s a prejudice, if I simply don’t want to fuck that someone because I’m not into spotty skin physically, that’s not a prejudice. It’s a ‘judice’, without the pre-, of someone’s beauty.
____Answer__
Lol. Please. Arguing semantics now?
Without even resorting to some purely academic definition, a prejudice only needs to apply a differential treatment (generally negative with respects to this topic) based on a non-sequitur attribute. It does NOT necessitate the attachment of, or concise broadcast of association of other traits. It only has to exist as __irrational differential treatment__.
In the case of heightism, the non-sequitur attribute is “under vs. average-or-above”. The differential treatment is “not-worthy vs. worthy”. That is all that is required.
This does not even qualify as a “nice try”. It is absolutely clutching at straws.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I’m sure there are people who attach random moral characteristics to shortness, that’d be a prejudice, but it’s not what we’re talking about here
____Answer__
We are talking about “prejudice”. Re-read the section above if you still “believe” that attaching a failing grade is not attaching anything. Please. You will be hard pressed to convince any, shy of the prejudiced in you favour, of this. Oh wait! They can’t be “prejudiced” in your favour if they aren’t attaching some other “attribute”. Lol. NOT.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
That ‘assessing beauty’ is completely a learned behavior. Truth? Says who? I’m assuming you, but that’s precisely what I was counter arguing before: a tiny element of a learned behavior inside a MUCH larger equation an entirely learned behavior does not make.
____Answer__
Pretty crafty: Did we all catch that? Notice how one needs to attach the qualifier “COMPLETELY” to the “a learned behaviour” in order to refute the notion?
Anne, the criticism NEVER was (or was even remotely implied as) that assessing beauty is COMPLETELY a learned behaviour. In fact, what was said was, “this prejudice is a learned behaviour” (this prejudice being heightism). There’s a huge difference, and this misrepresentation is just the introduction for another straw-man argument.
Well, cover the fallacious “tiny element” next.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Is it?
2(x+z)+3+x(z*x)=A = A=2+3 …Does it?
Because that’s what you’re doing. Taking the only side you care for of the equation (not simply the only one we know, but the only one you want to consider), learned behaviors, and portraying it as the sole factor of an outcome. That’s not simply a fallacy..it’s a fallacious system.
____Answer__
Lol. This attempted rebuttal is rather weak. Even I am aware of simple Algebra. Really Anne. Read on:
What you meant to say was that your opposition was putting credence in certain terms of a polynomial in order to solve for a family of solutions. And, that in so doing, they are not realizing the importance of other terms to the final result.
The “truth” is that if it can be shown that certain terms have a much higher influence on the result than others, they will be the determining factors in the outcome. Come on. Equations that define the position of a moving object in a frame are generally polynomials with a myriad of terms. However, only __certain terms__ are significant enough to alter the calculation appreciably. Many a space probe reach their intended locations via those oh so “fallacious systems that leave out insignificant terms” you dismiss.
As promised, we will address this false notion of “tiny element”.
In respects to heightism, the element of low self-esteem in the beholder is significant. It is easily demonstrated in how those who hold the prejudice react to investigation. It quite common to see, “I need to feel petite” or “I don’t want to look like a giant” as a response. It is also demonstrated in how vague euphemisms are employed to describe themselves.
This is clear indication of an underlying self-image issue, and not a “tiny element” as one tries to dismiss it as. (In fact, attempting to dismiss it as such is further proof!)
In contrast, these “mysterious” elements are not exhibited under examination, yet you think they are creating greater influence on the final outcome beyond what CAN be seen. One can continue to fool oneself that these “invisible” factors are the major motivators, but that is why the concept of Occam’s Razor is applied in these cases. It is also why the “Plea to Ignorance” is a fallacy.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I think you exaggerate in describing something as repulsion. There may be some instances of repulsion, as in finding something so unbeautiful to a degree of repulsion (pimply faces for me), but generally it is just a characteristic that is not found beautiful.
____Answer__
Really? Exaggerate? Lol. Let’s see.
We are addressing the height restrictions that appear often in clear terms on online dating ads. As a “restriction” they are mean that NO ONE that does not surpass the test value is NOT TO APPLY. Please explain how that does NOT constitute “It’s really about finding something so repulsive, you will not accept it.” (Which is what was actually said).
So, exaggeration? No. Fact? Yes.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I assume that when internet dating, people sit down, think long and hard about what they usually like and dislike and then they make their more important likes into requirements. None goes to a bar with a measuring tape accepting drinks only from men above 5’8’’, but the structure of internet dating forces you to turn preferences that usually don’t need to be spoken (you just go with them) into written down requirements.
____Answer__
That would be supported if the height requirements were not essentially typed free-form in the body of the ad description (which is how they generally appear.) No one is “FORCING” a heightist to write down the requirement this way. So. Nice try.
Height requirements being explicitly written largely demonstrate how some feel that it is a “badge of honour” to only be interested in trophies. It’s like saying, “I Only Drive Late model Aston Martins.” (It doesn’t mean I have the cash to buy or lease one, but “I’m only interested in automobiles that are worthy of my refined tastes or I’ll take public transit (rather than be seen with a cheaper model and make)”. Think about it, that is the EXACT parallel.
The behaviour may certainly exist outside of the online dating site, but it’s much harder to effectively “block” someone if they disagree with the attitude. That, and the fact that a disproportionate number of out-competed women are represented online.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Well, yes, the media plays a part. Actually my postulate wasn’t about us not being able to tell the difference between personal and ethereal (which often we aren’t, btw) It was about the difference between entertainment, which includes sensationalism for the sake of it, and art: sometimes they’re one in the same, sometimes you can very easily tell the difference, sometimes you can’t.
____Answer__
It was rather vague, but in any case, the melding of “The Arts”, “Entertainment”, and “Art” is independent to one’s relative vulnerability to direct or subliminal suggestion. Putting a label on the experience of sensation is just a label. Whether it was meant as one of, or a combination of the three terms is moot.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Think any random sit-com, think Piss Christ, or fashion in general.
What I argue against is equating art, or even entertainment, with peer pressure. We are the arts and the arts are us. The portray us, while they make us. There’s a difference between smoking a cigarette in junior high because otherwise you’re uncool and the role the arts have played in history and still play in the fact that we find symmetry beautiful, for example.
____Answer__
You cannot contradict yourself any greater than this!
On one hand you say:
“We are the arts, and the arts are us”
“They portray us, while they make us”
On the other hand you say:
“What I argue against is equating art, or even entertainment, with peer pressure.”
You clearly make the case that the Arts are our peers, and that they “MAKE” us. Then you argue that this isn’t the case. Please. At this point, credibility is in question.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Not knowing all the elements and how the interact, lets us, of course see some of the elements, namely:
Learned behaviors, the arts,… …and so on All of these elements and much more make us and they make our individual, and societal, perception of beauty, with regards to height and everything else. We can of course intuitively see the presence of learned behaviors in there ( as we can see them in sexual orientation, choosing a profession, being clumsy, etc…all we do, all we think and all we are has elements of learned behaviors: all of it. ), but identifying them as the main point,
____Answer__
Lower self-esteem, body image issues and peer pressure being the main drivers are easily demonstrated. This has been done on numerous occasions on this thread. That no other factors, even the “mysterious” ones exhibit shows that other factors are relatively insignificant (if they exist at all).
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
expecting their valence in the equation to be at all measurable
____Answer__
Yet, the frequent and consistent responses from heightists are quite measurable. Hence, it is not expectation, but observation.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
is not going with occam’s razor on the matter, it is being so simplistic it’s wrong.
____Answer__
If there was evidence of any other factors beyond, they have been presented as “unknown”. Coupled with how the known factors consistently correlate, this is hardly “simplistic” at all. Speculation does not do much against clear and present record. This is exactly why the concept of Occam’s Razor applies.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
And equating learned behaviors with peer pressure is even more wrong.
____Answer__
You will have to provide some citation of where this has been done. If not, it only constitutes another misrepresentation.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Well, the concept of beauty in the human form never manifests itself without societal influences. Beauty in the human connotation of it is a cultural concept and therefore never presented itself aside from the paradigm of societal influences.
____Answer__
You just finished saying that “equating learned behaviours with peer pressure is even more wrong”, yet you now say that societal influences are required in the concept of beauty. This is essentially another contradiction.
Lol. You will have to choose a position.
Honestly, Anne, either you are just trying to be deliberately vague to facilitate subsequent rebuttal, or you really are confused. I’m not trying to denigrate you here. Think about it.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Most of what has been found beautiful through history had no connection with a person’s direct abilities: symmetry, just to name one, the first trait in the determining human beauty has no connection whatsoever with one’s abilities.
____Answer__
Please, please try to understand the context and logic before attempting a rebuttal.
A determination of beauty having many elements that have no connection with “a person’s ability” does not logically imply that elements that explicitly EXCLUDE “a trait that does” are included.
What was said was:
“You would think that one thing that would be poignant in a course on aesthetics is that “beauty” in the human form will rarely manifest (outside of assistance from societal influences of course) as something that would __exclude__ a trait that is immutable, involuntary, does not hint at underlying disease, or a genetic flaw (covered in the previous response), or has no bearing on a person’s direct abilities.”
That does NOT translate to many (or all) traits that form the definition of beauty must have some bearing on a person’s abilities. (Which is what you are attempting to refute)
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I’ve spoken already on how I don’t believe what we’re examination can be defined as a prejudice.
____Answer__
…and it has been clearly shown that it is merely a belief based on a conveniently faulty definition of “prejudice”.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I believe we’re talking about ethics here, and a very loose meaning of legitimacy, maybe.
And of course, when I’m the one talking, it is implied I’m presenting my own observations, through my own perceptions of ethics, just as you are doing.
The thing is, I’ll repeat myself… …I needn’t know precisely why I find a person hot or not, even assuming I could.
____Answer__
No. No matter how many times you attempt to deflect this into a statement of how you decide your own morality, it is just a deflection.
No one is claiming that you do not possess the ability to decide, and judge your decision against your own code of conduct. This disambiguation is usually couched as “I have the right to choose how ever I wish” by the typical heightist.
However, observers, against their own code, judge your ACTIONS regardless of how YOU have deemed them. How this code more closely matches that of a reasonable and self-aware individual is what many do not want exposed.
Repeat this strawman argument as many times as you wish. It is a deflection the first time, and every time after that.
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Anne says:
December 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I disagree. The entire economies and social structures of western societies were based on gender discrimination. And somewhat, albeit in different manners throughout 1st and 2nd world countries, on ethnic discrimination.
These discriminations have been the very base of our families, workforce and economic systems. It doesn’t all come down to some petty insecurities: there have been structural, not super structural, forces keeping these systems of slavery (women were slaves of sorts) going for centuries.
____Answer__
What are you disagreeing with, precisely? Your refutation purposely does not address what was being examined and instead segues into other aspects (a common “deflective” ploy). We had already covered the application of the individual prejudices, so the underlying nature was the apparent subject.
The criticism was levied on your supposition that heightism differs in nature from gender and ethnic intolerance. It aptly demonstrated that the nature of discrimination was the same in each case. It didn’t touch upon the application of the bias, because the comment sought to dismiss heightism based on IT being of a different nature (and not how it was applied).
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@Everyone:
When rebuttals become more and more filled with deflection, disambiguation and hyperbole, it is clear that there is little substance. Even convincing oneself increasingly becomes an exercise of evasion rather than enlightenment.
@Anne:
Really. The key point remains that heightism IS prejudice, and that the motivations behind it are easily identified. Furthermore, other factors do not exhibit, and cannot be “assumed” to exist in significant influence based solely on a mathematical ability to exist.
Continuing to evade via typical fallacy-based tactics now only serve to degrade one’s credibility as the fragility of one’s arguments have been clearly shown.
Hello paranoia!
We are actually, not simply the same person, we are the same robot, built by the illuminati, through technologies perfected by the C.I.A. using a tiny camera that is injected in people’s stomachs through flu vaccines. There 1000s of us and our only purpose is to manufacture counterarguments to a stranger’s theory on people’s height on an internet blog about how some guys’ date pissed her pants.
The weighted the option of using us for international espionage, but they then realized that this was so much more important.
Yes, I’m ridiculing you. Fallaciam –at-riduculum, I would assume, yes?
I’m sorry, but if you reach an insulting degree of paranoia, don’t expect people to keep being civil.
It’s an internet forum, boy, take it easy, have an enjoyable abstract discussion with people you’ll never meet.
Aside from this very paranoid last streak, in general, I have to say I don’t find your manners of debate welcoming of any other perspectives, but your own. It is like you have these very precise, almost dogmatic, convictions on this subject and completely refuse to even knowledge any other take.
The use of words like truth instead of opinion, shown instead of argued, defining the act of exploring the context of an issue and other issues that are very clearly interlinked with it as ‘deflection’ remind me of fundamentalism.
The point is, no, you are not ACTUALLY teaching a class, you’re exchanging ideas on a public space.
[Lol. Relying on disambiguation are we now?
Most are aware you were referring to the “two sides here”, but you purposely elected to describe YOUR groups as:
__1: People who say there is some sort of height discrimination.
__2: People who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point.
(Yes, this is very clearly stated in the record)
Most are also aware that the criticism levied (and that you are trying to refute) is that you deliberately chose two groups that are described by DIFFERING variables (re-read the two vectors above as many times as required to confirm that this is indeed true).
People usually choose to improperly divide a group this way to provide “wiggle room” when their subsequent arguments are shown to be faulty. (“Oh… what I REALLY meant was…”) This is exactly what we see now.
No one (certainly not I, and you can check the posts above) took issue, in this context, that you didn’t address any of the things you now mention. You are misrepresenting (by inventing a criticism) in order to apply a refutation (a straw-man argument).]
Patronizing.
Obviously there can be many shades in the opinions expressed in these comments, the ones I interpreted as being the main sides of the debate were these two.
I think you misinterpreted my use of ‘can’t’: by saying’ what I find attractive can’t be policed’, I wasn’t referring to the fact that it’s hard or impossible to change your tastes, but that it is not unethical to have them and go with them and therefore shouldn’t be policed, that preferences on you mate’s looks are not a form of (negative, unethical) discrimination.
The two side I see are indeed these ones:
– People like you who think acting on these preferences are a form of discrimination, in its negative meaning
– People who don’t
Get it now?
Stop seeing straw-men everywhere, most of them are happily resting in cornfields, not here.
[The sides, again, are:
__1: Those who support the prejudice of heightism.
__2: Those who do not support the prejudice of heightism.
These are mutually exclusive. If you wish to say that this is NOT the definition of the “sides” you are referring to, feel free to provide, in no uncertain terms, the definition of such “sides” and how they are “somewhat” mutually exclusive.]
Definition of sides provided earlier.
Who’s strawmaning away now? you manufactured these two sides, almost nobody, aside from a few trolls has said to support the prejudice of heightism, BUT they have said that personal mate selection according to what attract you DOES NOT QUALIFY as the prejudice of heightism. Difference.
You manufactured a point of view to put against your own just now, wasn’t it what you were accusing me of doing?
[Sorry, YOU introduced the notion, by suggesting, “The people who say what I find attractive can’t be policed have a point”. We merely brought it to your attention that the lack of efficacy in enforcement does not mitigate the tort.
Again, you are still ignoring the critical __condition__ of “ethics” (“legitimacy” and “legality” too). The evaluation of it is dependent on the evaluator. We’ve already mentioned this clearly. If one chooses to believe that some act is moral, that doesn’t mean that it is moral in the judgment of peers. It may not even be valid should the situation be reversed. This is largely why the circular argument of “it’s un-beautiful because it’s un-beautiful” is impotent.
As we have mentioned above, heightists DON’T want to entertain the notion that they are negatively judged for promoting a prejudice. It’s OK “in their minds” to judge others based on an involuntary, immutable and an essentially innocuous trait, but not OK for others to judge them on their own actions.
This is difficult to refute (well, really it can’t.) This is why one chooses to assail the definition of the act as something other than a “prejudice”, or, claim that it is due to some unknown factor that is out of their control.]
I already explained to you how you misinterpreted that sentence.
YES: two different people are going to interpret the same act as ethical and unethical…the relativity of ethics, there you have it. The two people can also argue their reason for why they differ on the morality on an act (it’s what we’re doing), but none is arguing that their evaluations are going to be different. I can play, find-the-straw-man-everywhere too, you know, here’s one: I never argued against the fact the definition of something as ethical or unethical is dependent on the evaluator.
I can very well entertain the notion to be negatively judged, all you do is going to be negatively judged by at least someone.
But you are comparing two acts that are not the same thing and extending the meaning of the verb ‘to judge’ in a very loose way.
To not want to go out with someone is not to judge them. Do you judge negatively everyone you don’t want to go out with? I don’t judge the people I’m not attracted as anything else than’ not for me, romantically’.
Otherwise I’d be judging every single woman on the planet.
[“See, circular arguments are indeed weak.”
Nice try. You are attempting to imply that you meant to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of circular arguments. The truth is that you were __employing them__, and you were called to task for it. The record clearly shows this, Anne.
“one tiny factor”
The tiny factor you reference is not tiny (of course, you can attempt to refute this by being deliberately vague, “oh… that’s not what I meant as the factor” lol) This is a sly attempt at dismissing the factor of “trophy hunting to compensate for low self-esteem” as minor. It is not.
The evidence that those who are very proud of their denigration of shorter-than-average men have common traits is very easy to discover. Furthermore, the way in which some of these proponents “defend” their prejudice (not just here, but any place where the topic appears online) has all the hallmarks of lower-self esteem. These include, but are not restricted to:
__1: The employment of false reasoning (“I love my heels” is a popular one.)
__2: Reliance on false stereotypes (“they have Napoleon Complexes.)
__3: Denial of personal influence (“it’s natural instinct”)
__4: Outright Hostility (“[place derogatory term here]”)
__5: Reliance on multiple fallacies in defense (“Straw man arguments”,”Plea to Ignorance”, etc.)
What one is trying to obfuscate here too, is that these “other” factors (those “oh so mysterious” ones) even if they existed, do not have anywhere near the influence of this single factor of “a need to compensate for a perceived self-image inadequacy”.
We will cover off these “mysterious” factors in context briefly (well, relatively briefly)]
Come on. It wasn’t a ‘Look, I’ve in fact demonstrated that circular augments are weak’. It was ‘see, (as a colloquial way to being a sentence), it is in fact true that it is a weak argument, but it is the only one we can make’. Context, hun.
No, no, I meant the same by tiny factor, personal insecurities.
You listed a number of attitudes, very very different,
2 is in fact prejudice, attaching a behavior or personality trait to physical characteristic
4 is hate speech, which is indeed discrimination,
1 is someone I would define having kind of weird priorities, but still not committing any unethical or prejudicial act in choosing a partner according to them,
3 is someone who deems physical human attraction completely natural, I personally disagree, but having kind of a weak perspective on sexual attraction doesn’t make one an insecure person looking for a trophy
5. What you, sometimes rightfully, sometimes not, define as fallacious, also has nothing to do with one’s insecurity, more with one’s ability to informally debate a topic
While 4 is very easily linked to personal insecurities and maybe also 2, because the people who are so influenced by simplistic stereotypes sometimes may do it out of desire of integration due to insecurity, the rest appears to have no direct connection to it.
It’s what I was trying to say all along. Not being into a certain type of person physically doesn’t make you insecure, being an asshole about it, thinking that that physical characteristic carries something else with it and putting them down as human beings does.
[In respects to heightism, the element of low self-esteem in the beholder is significant. It is easily demonstrated in how those who hold the prejudice react to investigation. It quite common to see, “I need to feel petite” or “I don’t want to look like a giant” as a response. It is also demonstrated in how vague euphemisms are employed to describe themselves.
This is clear indication of an underlying self-image issue, and not a “tiny element” as one tries to dismiss it as. (In fact, attempting to dismiss it as such is further proof!)
In contrast, these “mysterious” elements are not exhibited under examination, yet you think they are creating greater influence on the final outcome beyond what CAN be seen. One can continue to fool oneself that these “invisible” factors are the major motivators, but that is why the concept of Occam’s Razor is applied in these cases. It is also why the “Plea to Ignorance” is a fallacy.]
At least now it is very clear what we disagree on.
You believe that, among all other factors, known and unknown, one’s insecurity is a fundamental element of what people (especially people who don’t find short men attractive) find or not find attractive. I tend to disagree, mostly because I haven’t been shown data to this claim. And no, I don’t consider people claiming to wanting to feel tiny compared to their partner as data, that seems to me to have more to do with the history of gender roles in relation to domination and submission, than with personal insecurity. And the idea, the visual representation of protection. I know that height has very little to do in reality with the ability to protect, by it remains a symbol, subconscious, artistic and historical symbol of it.
You can’t separate just one criteria of beauty (height) from all the others criteria that people have with regards to beauty. If finding short men unattractive is heightism, than there are tons of other isms with should list: baldism, symmetrism, and so on.
Of course, height seems to be, on average, the most important of these criteria, the first determinator of men’s attractiveness for women. Pretty much like a nice proportionate slender body is for men.
Now, weight you can change, height you can’t, but one trait being immutable won’t make it more attractive. It does make the ordeal more unfortunate for the people who possess that immutable trait, but also doesn’t make the people who find it unattractive wrong or unethical for not wanting to date a person who possesses it. None owes you a date because what makes you unattractive to them is not your fault.
I still don’t understand how not wanting to date those who don’t attract you makes you insecure or looking for a trophy boyfriend.
[Really? Exaggerate? Lol. Let’s see.
We are addressing the height restrictions that appear often in clear terms on online dating ads. As a “restriction” they are mean that NO ONE that does not surpass the test value is NOT TO APPLY. Please explain how that does NOT constitute “It’s really about finding something so repulsive, you will not accept it.” (Which is what was actually said).
So, exaggeration? No. Fact? Yes.]
The one person you’re quoting obviously found it repulsive, she said it, duh. We all have things we find sexually repulsive and obviously avoid them in our sexual partners. Saying it out loud like that: bit insensitive.
My guess it is that for the majority of the rest of people who put up precise restrictions it is more of a numbers game. They usually are attracted to a type of person and therefore put up parameters that give the more chances to meet a person like that.
It’s much like an age limit on a profile (ageism alert? Yes?). In a context with so many people on a site, you put up restriction that give you the best chances to meet someone with the characteristics you want, accepting the possibility to lose out on some people you might have liked regardless of a characteristic of them you’re usually not into. Otherwise, much like the guy who writes this site, you’d spend your entire time going on dates. People have jobs.
[That would be supported if the height requirements were not essentially typed free-form in the body of the ad description (which is how they generally appear.) No one is “FORCING” a heightist to write down the requirement this way. So. Nice try.
Height requirements being explicitly written largely demonstrate how some feel that it is a “badge of honour” to only be interested in trophies. It’s like saying, “I Only Drive Late model Aston Martins.” (It doesn’t mean I have the cash to buy or lease one, but “I’m only interested in automobiles that are worthy of my refined tastes or I’ll take public transit (rather than be seen with a cheaper model and make)”. Think about it, that is the EXACT parallel.
The behaviour may certainly exist outside of the online dating site, but it’s much harder to effectively “block” someone if they disagree with the attitude. That, and the fact that a disproportionate number of out-competed women are represented online.]
Oh, come one. Literal, much? Of course none is forcing anyone at gun point to write down anything. It’s a saying. The heat forced me to close the window, that guy’s annoyance forced me to punch him in the face. It wasn’t a try, it was a saying. Jesus.
Let me rephrase: as I explained above, the context of internet dating makes it pragmatic for a person to have restrictive requirements.
On writing it down specifically. I don’t know, I don’t do internet dating, but I would think that would serve the purpose of restricting the people who write to you to those you actual want to interact with, like an age limit. I don’t date over 35, so don’t write to me if you are…
I’m not saying an ad that says..’you fucking Napoleonic short guys, don’t you dare write to me, you sicken me’ is not written by a prejudiced asshole, let’s call him heightist, if you like the neologism, I’m simply saying that a requirement alone, in the context of selecting a mate, does not equal prejudice, or insecurity.
[You cannot contradict yourself any greater than this!
On one hand you say:
“We are the arts, and the arts are us”
“They portray us, while they make us”
On the other hand you say:
“What I argue against is equating art, or even entertainment, with peer pressure.”
You clearly make the case that the Arts are our peers, and that they “MAKE” us. Then you argue that this isn’t the case. Please. At this point, credibility is in question.]
I haven’t contradicted myself, you wrongly red it as a contradiction.
I don’t equate saying that the arts make us with peer pressure, you did that. The arts make us even before we are born, as part of history, shared symbols, a shared subconscious. We make the arts by either being artists of being what they portray.
If you want an example on the subject on HOW IMMENSELY peer pressure and being influenced by the arts are two different things, here it is.
Peer pressure would be your friend telling you ‘No, girl, ew, don’t date that boy, he’s short’ and you not dating him even if you like him. Being influenced by the arts is not liking him yourself, and the fact of not liking him being in part due to the arts’ influence on your perception of beauty.
[Lower self-esteem, body image issues and peer pressure being the main drivers are easily demonstrated. This has been done on numerous occasions on this thread. That no other factors, even the “mysterious” ones exhibit shows that other factors are relatively insignificant (if they exist at all).]
Not demonstrated, simply stated, by you as an opinion you called truth, because that’s how you debate. You say something you think, which may or may not have its merits, and then you call it truth.
[Yet, the frequent and consistent responses from heightists are quite measurable. Hence, it is not expectation, but observation.]
Between observation and deduction, there’s something in between and that would be the individual: you. You know that ordeal with filters, plato and his cave?Check it out.
Your power to deduct from observations is clearly very biased by your dogmatic convictions and your personal bias. I mean, you just observed and deduced that I was the alter-ego of some guy. That alone kind of says something to me.
[You just finished saying that “equating learned behaviours with peer pressure is even more wrong”, yet you now say that societal influences are required in the concept of beauty. This is essentially another contradiction.
Lol. You will have to choose a position.
Honestly, Anne, either you are just trying to be deliberately vague to facilitate subsequent rebuttal, or you really are confused. I’m not trying to denigrate you here. Think about it.]
Honestly, dude, look up the meaning of words before confusing distinguishing between a thing and another with a contradiction.
I have explained this to you already, peer pressure is different from having society playing a part in constructing your perception of beauty.
peer pressure n. Pressure from one’s peers to behave in a manner similar or acceptable to them.
Which is a very, very different thing from having, more or less consciously, society as a whole, history, arts, environment play a part in what you perceive as beautiful.
Once again.
Peer pressure is being into X, but not doing X because most people you have around are not into X and you are afraid of not conforming.
Having the society you live in influencing your tastes means honestly not being into X and being aware that not being into X (as well as pretty much everything else you are or are not into) necessarily has something to do with the society you live, because you don’t happen in a vacuum.
[Please, please try to understand the context and logic before attempting a rebuttal.
A determination of beauty having many elements that have no connection with “a person’s ability” does not logically imply that elements that explicitly EXCLUDE “a trait that does” are included.
What was said was:
“You would think that one thing that would be poignant in a course on aesthetics is that “beauty” in the human form will rarely manifest (outside of assistance from societal influences of course) as something that would __exclude__ a trait that is immutable, involuntary, does not hint at underlying disease, or a genetic flaw (covered in the previous response), or has no bearing on a person’s direct abilities.”
That does NOT translate to many (or all) traits that form the definition of beauty must have some bearing on a person’s abilities. (Which is what you are attempting to refute)]
Please, please, try to have more of an open mind when reading a point and not being so literal.
Simply by considering asymmetry, its very opposite, instead of symmetry the concept applies, I though you were able to get there on your own. Asymmetry is an involuntary immutable trait having no bearing on a person’s direct abilities that (on average, many times, there are exceptions of course. Just like there are for shortness) often excludes people who have it from being considered conventionally attractive by society at large.
And just like shortness, the more present the trait of a asymmetry is, the less conventionally attractive the person is going to be found.
[…and it has been clearly shown that it is merely a belief based on a conveniently faulty definition of “prejudice”]
Again, not shown. Argued, by you and your very personal definition of prejudice that has nothing to do with the one in the vocabulary.
Attaching a failing grade to a characteristic, with regards to selecting a mate it is something we all do. We do it with the person’s age, gender, looks and many other things. I’m sure you do it too. It’s not prejudice: you don’t deem that person unworthy of you because there’s something wrong with them, negative. He’s not bad in general, or ‘less than’ me, just not for me.
I don’t like V-neck shirts, they don’t fit me well, I don’t like them aesthetically and I don’t want them on me. Now, am I prejudiced against V-necks, do I think badly of V-necks, do I attach a failing grade to them as a whole? No, I just don’t want them on me. I choose my wardrobe and my boyfriends, according to my taste, without deeming all that I don’t choose as negative or unworthy of me, simply something I don’t like.
[No. No matter how many times you attempt to deflect this into a statement of how you decide your own morality, it is just a deflection.
No one is claiming that you do not possess the ability to decide, and judge your decision against your own code of conduct. This disambiguation is usually couched as “I have the right to choose how ever I wish” by the typical heightist.
However, observers, against their own code, judge your ACTIONS regardless of how YOU have deemed them. How this code more closely matches that of a reasonable and self-aware individual is what many do not want exposed.
Repeat this strawman argument as many times as you wish. It is a deflection the first time, and every time after that.]
The strawman returns. Strawmen everywhere. On sale.
You were the one who started talking about the relativity of ethics, my answer to that was basically a long way to say ‘duh’.
If one observer (you) judges my actions (not even mine in this case, when I stumbled into this page I believe it was the first time in my life I thought about dudes’ height for more than three seconds, I’m talking purely for debate’s sake) in a different way as how I have judged them, I will, again, say, duh…of course that can happen.
What I was doing before was arguing for the fact that I can make my own decisions and judge them ethical, but I was arguing for those decisions appearing like those of a reasonable, ethical and self-aware individual, but you haven’t replied to that with other than ‘Well, that’s YOUR perception of rational and ethical’. Of course it’s mine, I’m writing.
[What are you disagreeing with, precisely? Your refutation purposely does not address what was being examined and instead segues into other aspects (a common “deflective” ploy). We had already covered the application of the individual prejudices, so the underlying nature was the apparent subject.
The criticism was levied on your supposition that heightism differs in nature from gender and ethnic intolerance. It aptly demonstrated that the nature of discrimination was the same in each case. It didn’t touch upon the application of the bias, because the comment sought to dismiss heightism based on IT being of a different nature (and not how it was applied).]
I’m disagreeing exactly with the fact that the nature is the same. I wasn’t talking about application, I was talking about nature.
Stop seeing ploys to deflect from god knows what every time you don’t understand something well. It’s ok to misinterpret, not understand someone else, but don’t jump to the paranoiaohmygodaploy every time you do. Wait a second a consider the option that the other person was actually addressing that specific point and you didn’t get the way in which they were doing it.
The nature of gender prejudice is not based on the insecurity of the perpetrator, it is based on a social force of conservation apt at keeping or regaining an economic, and therefore social, privilege. So is class discrimination and so is discrimination against blacks in America. Structural is not only the application, structural is the nature, the nature to try and hold on to the means of production.
And please, close down that Wikipedia page on fallacies.
@everybody
This entire argument for the validity of Heightism in this case rests on a faulty definition of “prejudice”. All interested parties can look up the definition of “prejudice” for him or herself. Furthermore, all parties are invited to inspect the thread and come their own conclusions as to where and who have applied fallacies to support their claims.
A poor image of self, driving low self-esteem can and will cause some women to restrict potential mates to ONLY what they perceive as a trophy in the eyes of their peers.
@Anne:
I invite you to argue any point without resorting to misrepresenting your opposition, taking comments out of context, and any other number of fallacies exhibited. We have taken much effort in supporting our discovery of these.
The definitions of “prejudice” and now the verb “judge” are easily sourced and the application of both are sound and accurate in our argument. Your suggestion that they are not is completely vapid. Your position is lost (not merely an opinion, as supporting reasoning has always been cheerfully provided.) This is no longer in question.
Should you wish to continue to purposely ignore the errors in your foundation, it is entirely in spite of our efforts to respectfully point them out. The penalty is your credibility in the eyes of your peers here. This is entire out of my control, and completely within yours.
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Details:
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Hello paranoia!
We are actually, not simply the same person,… …our only purpose is to manufacture counterarguments to a stranger’s theory on people’s height on an internet blog about how some guys’ date pissed her pants…
____Answer__
Lol (yes, “lol”)
It is curious that one avatar answers for the other (and vice-versa). Coincidence? Not so much.
One might be able to promote the paranoia cause if there was evidence of the behaviour. However, as each supposition is backed up with directing the audience to the evidence, and that the decision is left to the audience to discover for themselves, your conclusion is fantasy. The evidence of collusion has already been pointed out. The rest is just an attempt to ridicule based on your incorrect assessment.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I’m sorry, but if you reach an insulting degree of paranoia, don’t expect people to keep being civil.
It’s an internet forum, boy, take it easy, have an enjoyable abstract discussion with people you’ll never meet.
____Answer__
No. Should you choose to have this avatar become equally uncivil as some others that is wholly your prerogative. Alleged paranoia in one’s opposition is hardly mitigation for name-calling and personal insults.
There is also no need for condescending advice (although some will apply it in hopes to feel “superior” to others). The degree of “projection” is obvious too.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Aside from this very paranoid last streak, in general, I have to say I don’t find your manners of debate welcoming of any other perspectives, but your own. It is like you have these very precise, almost dogmatic, convictions on this subject and completely refuse to even knowledge any other take.
____Answer__
You have been afforded every opportunity to come up with well-supported counterpoints. In lieu of this, you have repeatedly employed “straw man” arguments and have since gone on to clearly contradict your own position. Incidents of this have been clearly laid out to both you and the viewing audience (as opposed to your suggestion that it is merely “opinion”). You may choose to ignore this, but it will not remove that record.
As far as an opinion of dogmatism in your opposition, I doubt if you can find any evidence of this.
Refuse to acknowledge? Please. We take the time to go through every point offered in detail, and we are “refusing to acknowledge”? In contrast, you have on more than one occasion, deliberately taken things out-of-context, or wholly misrepresented them, in order to give credence to a faulty refutation. Again there is clear record of this. Others can read it and decide who is correct in assessment.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The use of words like truth instead of opinion, shown instead of argued, defining the act of exploring the context of an issue and other issues that are very clearly interlinked with it as ‘deflection’ remind me of fundamentalism.
____Answer__
Nice try.
One prescribing to fundamentalism would usually not support their case with carefully laid out arguments (note that fundamentalists commonly employ circular arguments). Please point out an instance, in CONTEXT, where we have subscribed to this behaviour. We use the words that are appropriate to convey the message. If you feel the word “truth” was used in a closed-minded way, feel free to point out a case (again, in CONTEXT). Should you be unable to, your suggestion is merely an unsupported opinion.
In contrast, you have repeatedly attempted to attach caveats to the definition of “prejudice” in order to avoid admitting that heightism is a prejudice. When this has been laid out to you clearly, you merely ignore it and repeat the fallacy (please, look up the definition of prejudice. Tell us all how it is subject to YOUR definition of it). That is far more the behaviour of a fundamentalist than your opposition has exhibited.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The point is, no, you are not ACTUALLY teaching a class, you’re exchanging ideas on a public
space.
____Answer__
This one really deserves the “LOL”.
That was your supposition as an attempt to denigrate (that we facetiously acknowledged)… or have you conveniently forgotten that again?
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Patronizing.
Obviously there can be many shades in the opinions expressed in these comments, the ones I interpreted as being the main sides of the debate were these two.
____Answer__
It could have been construed as “patronizing” had you not persisted in employing a vague definition. The clear definition of the sides was required to pre-empt the usual, “oh you misinterpret what I was saying” deflection as was pointed out in the previous post to you. That was the criticism you are trying to create distance from now. We are all aware of how to define the two sides. The definition is there to prevent the usual waffle.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I think you misinterpreted my use of ‘can’t’: by saying’ what I find attractive can’t be policed’, I wasn’t referring to the fact that it’s hard or impossible to change your tastes, but that it is not unethical to have them and go with them and therefore shouldn’t be policed, that preferences on you mate’s looks are not a form of (negative, unethical) discrimination.
____Answer__
ROFL. My previous point (that people will try this “what I really meant was” excuse) is immediately proven.
The interpretation was not at stake (and we’ll cover our interpretation in a moment too.)
The point was clearly laid out: You deliberately chose “sides” that were defined by different variables. In so doing, one would have latitude to draw back and go down a differing path once one’s position was shown to be faulty. This is why the definition was spelled out (as “patronizing” as you now try to paint it as.)
The interpretation? Let’s see. You originally stated “CAN’T be policed”. In your current attempted defence, you state, “SHOULDN’T be policed”. Not only have you changed the verb (very critical), you go on to place a condition (a faulty one too, that we will go over the reason for that again) to qualify that “SHOULDN’T”.
There was NO misinterpretation. You are now literally changing the wording after the fact to try and defend it. Come on, Anne. Do you think anyone (even the “paranoid”) can’t see through that? What shred of credibility you had going into your latest response is now completely evaporated.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The two side I see are indeed these ones:
– People like you who think acting on these preferences are a form of discrimination, in its negative meaning
– People who don’t
Get it now?
____Answer__
No, if it WAS that (that the meaning of “discrimination” was the crux) you would have said that. You can’t change the history in this thread (fortunately for those who what to see the “truth”).
But no matter, you are wrong in this respect too.
We have already gone over this. Firstly, the act of discrimination as in setting a minimum height requirement is not merely a “preference”, it is a “requirement”. This is just the usual euphemism that people employ to make a prejudice seem a little less repugnant (are you going to criticize the word usage now for being “fundamentalist”?)
Secondly, please go and find a definition of “prejudice” that applies the conditions that you laid out in your previous post. Really. Go and find it and bring it to all the people here on this public forum. I have doubts that you will find anything of the sort.
A prejudice only has to exhibit differential treatment based on a non-sequitur attribute. There is no additional requirement of the beholder having to assess other trait values. The beholder only has to apply differential treatment.
It is doubtful that you don’t “get this”. You are essentially “redefining” prejudice to suit your faulty position. Be as patronizing as you like, but it doesn’t negate this foundation.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Stop seeing straw-men everywhere, most of them are happily resting in cornfields, not here.
____Answer__
How ironic. This criticism of yours is in itself a straw man argument.
We cannot stop what we are NOT doing. We only pointed out straw man arguments where they were occurring. You employ them quite frequently, and when applicable to the discussion, we have pointed it out. If you disagree with a particular instance, by all means, point it out. Calling those who point it out as “paranoid” is a pretty weak defence.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I already explained to you how you misinterpreted that sentence.
YES: two different people are going to interpret the same act as ethical and unethical…the relativity of ethics, there you have it. The two people can also argue their reason for why they differ on the morality on an act (it’s what we’re doing), but none is arguing that their evaluations are going to be different.
____Answer__
Neither was there any misinterpretation nor was the reason for the criticism. The disambiguation was in __IGNORING__ the fact that the heightist and the observer had differing views, __NOT__, that one was arguing that differing views existed to begin with.
Wow. Can we all see that you used a straw man argument in an attempt to defend this too!
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I can play, find-the-straw-man-everywhere too, you know, here’s one: I never argued against the fact the definition of something as ethical or unethical is dependent on the evaluator.
____Answer__
Really?
Well, to successfully PLAY that game, you would have to properly identify a straw man first. It was clearly indicated that you were IGNORING the dynamic of differences between observers. NO ONE, not I, not anyone else, has said you “ARGUED AGAINST” the existence of this dynamic. There’s a “fundamental” difference here, and NO straw man was erected (That’s more g-rated than it sounds, people!)
So, even if you could “play that game”, you have not demonstrated it here in this attempt at poetic justice. Please try again. The game is easy, but the stakes are one’s credibility.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I can very well entertain the notion to be negatively judged, all you do is going to be negatively judged by at least someone.
But you are comparing two acts that are not the same thing and extending the meaning of the verb ‘to judge’ in a very loose way. To not want to go out with someone is not to judge them. Do you judge negatively everyone you don’t want to go out with? I don’t judge the people I’m not attracted as anything else than’ not for me, romantically’.
____Answer__
Come on, Anne. This attempt is potentially the weakest one yet (whoops, was that a “judgment”?)
Usually the retreat to arguing semantics is impotent, but this is just too precious. I am extending the meaning of the verb “judge” now? Unbelievable.
When given the choice, one either decides to, or not. To be, or not to be: that is the decision. To go out with, or not to go out with, that is what is a judgment decides. The “negative” is in the outcome of the decision: that is ALL. Yes (I’ll go out with) is positive. No (I will not go out with) is negative. The outcome is your “judgement”.
Honestly, Anne. It is not even a question as to what the act of “judging” is. Either you are truly too proud to admit that you don’t have any foundation here, or you really, really do not have a grasp on any of this. There is no “Oh, I meant this or that” on it.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Otherwise I’d be judging every single woman on the planet.
____Answer__
Oh, I didn’t know you swung that way (or were you forgetful of which avatar you were using).
In regards to the comment, one would judge every person that came into question. Should that extend to every single person on the planet, then, YES, it would be every single person on the planet.
Should the judgment be deferred, that too is a judgment (as in “I’ll decide upon further investigation” versus “No, I’ve made my decision”). As it pertains to heightism, if the critical factor was that of the height of the applicant, and nothing else, then, THAT is the factor being judged.
Q.E.D.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Come on. It wasn’t a ‘Look, I’ve in fact demonstrated that circular augments are weak’. It was ‘see, (as a colloquial way to being a sentence), it is in fact true that it is a weak argument, but it is the only one we can make’. Context, hun.
____Answer__
Yes. Context. The context of convenient innuendo isn’t lost on everyone either (What, are you going to accuse people of being “paranoid” now. “Lol”)
That circular arguments are no arguments at all was ALREADY established. To phrase it as a discovery, serves no purpose other than to confuse the point in time at which it was discovered (whether prior to this at the point of the statement).
If you are now stating that “the only argument one can make is a circular one”, that too is false. It has been effectively laid out that the behaviour of only entertaining requests from men taller than a given height (and that height nearly always being “average height” ) is tied to the self-image issues of the beholder. Furthermore, the definition of prejudice ONLY requires differential treatment. Also, the definition of judgment has neither been vague, nor improperly applied. Hence it is not the circular judgment that “un-beautiful is un-beautiful”.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
No, no, I meant the same by tiny factor, personal insecurities.
You listed a number of attitudes, very very different…
_____Answer__
What was said was:
“…the way in which some of these proponents “defend” their prejudice (not just here, but any place where the topic appears online) has all the hallmarks of lower-self esteem.”
Let’s see, you imply an understanding of “context” and you now try to disassociate the context in how that list of behaviours was introduced? That’s quite ironic, yes?
The “number of attitudes” was clearly introduced as the indicators of the behaviour. To take these actions and criticize them to be “very, very different” from the behaviour they describe is ridiculous. The responses are all based on the stimulus of being confronted about the prejudice (or has one conveniently forgotten that?) All of these are shared amongst those who clearly support heightism. THAT is the context.
The differential is that these behaviours are observed together with each other (often within the same person) and with heightism. One can always use the “coincidence” excuse for practically anything. Heck the planets don’t actually revolve around the sun: retrograde motion happens because the planets actually orbit backwards at times. Please.
If it wasn’t “personal insecurities” it is unlikely you would have people constantly trying to suppress discussion on this topic. It’s not as if heightism isn’t happening. It’s not as if the case that it was personal insecurities wasn’t supported.
Incidentally retreats to fallacies, and ad hominem, etc. are often tied to the inability to accept an error in “judgement” (and not merely an inability to articulate one’s position in a debate.) That is an indication of self-esteem issues.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
It’s what I was trying to say all along. Not being into a certain type of person physically doesn’t make you insecure, being an axxhole about it, thinking that that physical characteristic carries something else with it and putting them down as human beings does.
____Answer__
…and as it has been said all along too, __insecurity in one’s self-image__ is what lurks behind women (and men too, should they swing that way) who feel that men who are below a given height are automatically disqualified from application.
This is exhibited in how often proponents express concern on how it “looks” to be with a man that is significantly (or sometimes just) below average height.
It is surprising how often those who support heightism feel that “being nice about it” (as in not being an a-hole) mitigates the prejudice. It doesn’t. That’s hard to accept. But, it doesn’t. The judgment (yes, it is decided outcome: to date or not to date) is based on that prejudice. Euphemisms, candy coating, consolation prizes of a free salt-shaker, etc. does not remove the tort.
No one needs to “put down” women in order to make paying equally capable women less than men for the same job an unjust outcome. They just have to pay them less. (And don’t try to apply the “it’s different because it’s personal” excuse here as the decision to pay someone less IS personal).
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
At least now it is very clear what we disagree on.
You believe that, among all other factors, known and unknown, one’s insecurity is a fundamental element of what people (especially people who don’t find short men attractive) find or not find attractive. I tend to disagree, mostly because I haven’t been shown data to this claim.
____Answer__
Please represent your opposition’s position with precision. We call straw man arguments when we see them, and this is one.
It was stated:
__“In respects to heightism, the element of low self-esteem in the beholder is significant.”
It was NOT stated:
__“Low self-esteem is a fundamental element of what people find or not find attractive”
See how the latter is WHOLLY different (especially in how low self-esteem is in general) in meaning from the former? Anne, this is why “straw man” arguments are called out. What is important at this stage is that it is becoming apparent that you may be knowingly misrepresenting the position of your opposition to create these false defences (Which is why personal integrity becomes the next ante surrendered should this continue).
Insofar as data to support the claim of how low self-esteem relates to heightism, that has already been introduced. You apparently chose to look at each behavioural response to investigation in-silo and out-of-context in order to attempt a refutation. You HAVE been shown data.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
And no, I don’t consider people claiming to wanting to feel tiny compared to their partner as data, that seems to me to have more to do with the history of gender roles in relation to domination and submission, than with personal insecurity.
____Answer__
They still constitute data.
You may choose to dismiss it as coincidentally due to gender history roles, but that would fly in the face of the general movement for women’s equality. You can’t say that while women feel they should have parity in the workplace they also effectively yield to historically and socially reinforced gender roles. If so, you are just relying on the excuse of status quo (“I’m just conforming”).
It describes “personal insecurity” because the beholder directly says, “I want to feel petite”. If they said, “I want to fulfill a socially reinforced gender role” (or something to that respect) it would make sense. However, they don’t. What? They aren’t “aware” of that? Well, was it not you that continues to claim that the process of creating an online dating ad makes the user become AWARE of what they want?
That is why one cannot use this excuse.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
And the idea, the visual representation of protection. I know that height has very little to do in reality with the ability to protect, by it remains a symbol, subconscious, artistic and historical symbol of it.
____Answer__
No. This is one of the tired old excuses that heightists use. I’d expect better than that from you.
The “visual representation” of protection, if we look at individuals, is still the appearance of experience, athleticism and skill. Be the observer a man, a woman, or a group of either, the wiry veteran with that “look” is who you know you don’t mess with. The guy who is obviously the pack leader? Same thing. As you say, “height” is not the first attribute that determines this.
If there were as significant a number of online ads that read, “must look like a veteran MMA fighter”, instead of must be over average-height, then you would have a point. That isn’t the case.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
You can’t separate just one criteria of beauty (height) from all the others criteria that people have with regards to beauty.
____Answer__
Yet, that is precisely what the heightist does. They clearly state, no applications from men beneath X height will be accepted. Please, we are going over very old ground here.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
If finding short men unattractive is heightism, than there are tons of other isms with should list: baldism, symmetrism, and so on.
____Answer__
This too has been covered on numerous occasions (come on, it’s one of those weak dismissals).
Heightism is the not only the topic of this thread, but it has both a frequency and depth of occurrence online not seen in the other “ism’s” that you list. That is why they aren’t listed.
Since you mention it, “baldism” is similar in construct as the condition is involuntary and really no direct hindrance to a man’s abilities (What? Are critics now going to accuse one of being bald now too? Lol.) Until we see, “must have hair” as many times as we see “must be X tall”, it isn’t the same thing.
Once again, this is just trying to dismiss heightism as “just another prejudice” (and we should give equal audience to all prejudice on any thread). Come on, that’s weak even for a neophyte.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Of course, height seems to be, on average, the most important of these criteria, the first determinator of men’s attractiveness for women. Pretty much like a nice proportionate slender body is for men.
____Answer__
That’s just restating the fact that many women preclude men based on the man being shorter than average.
Slender proportions? Well lean-mass ratio, is effectively in everyone’s control, so while it is a preference (and not nearly the exclusion that height is), so as you subsequently note, it fails as a comparison.
Come on, you are just rehashing the usual incomparable traits.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Now, weight you can change, height you can’t, but one trait being immutable won’t make it more attractive. It does make the ordeal more unfortunate for the people who possess that immutable trait, but also doesn’t make the people who find it unattractive wrong or unethical for not wanting to date a person who possesses it. None owes you a date because what makes you unattractive to them is not your fault.
____Answer__
No. This is purposely avoiding the differentiation being that of __rational as opposed to irrational__ reasoning. It is a simple deduction that IRRATIONALLY being adverse to a trait (such as a man being shorter than average) will not be affected by introducing the knowledge that the trait is immutable.
It will also be largely ineffective to the zealot’s judgment (yes, “judgment”) especially if they are in denial. In fact, some will continue to deflect from the root reasoning regardless of how clearly it is explained to them. Of course, as we have said, none of this is to change the mind of the zealot. It’s all about showing the rest of the audience how desperately zealots cling to their “truths”.
Again, it is the lack of reasoning, coupled with illogical defence that betrays the denial of self-esteem issues in the beholder. People can choose as they wish (you can lay down that straw man for the umpteenth time), however, they cannot expect others to NOT judge their irrationality.
“None owes you a date”? No one has claimed or suggested that (that’s the usual straw man). You can attempt to dismiss this identification of these cornfield denizens as “paranoia”, but as usual, we are only clearly demonstrating your employment of them.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I still don’t understand how not wanting to date those who don’t attract you makes you insecure or looking for a trophy boyfriend.
____Answer__
I thank you for stating this, as it CLEARLY shows the necessity to MISREPRESENT the case in order to ridicule it.
Except you, no one has said:
“Not wanting to date those who don’t attract you MAKES you insecure or looking for a trophy boyfriend.”
What WAS put forth is more accurately worded as:
INSECURITY in ones own body image drives the need to be seen ONLY with what one sees as a trophy in the eyes of their peers.
You are PURPOSELY reversing the cause and effect (as well as replacing the effect of heightism with a more nebulous one) in order to promote a false conclusion. This betrays that you actually DO understand that what you oppose is actually valid. Why? Because the ONLY way you have been able to mount even the slightest opposition REQUIRES that you change the meaning of what you are opposing.
You can fool yourself, but it is unlikely you are fooling most of those who read this.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The one person you’re quoting obviously found it repulsive, she said it, duh. We all have things we find sexually repulsive and obviously avoid them in our sexual partners. Saying it out loud like that: bit insensitive.
____Answer__
One person? No. EVERY single case where the ad states a height minimum requirement is saying precisely that. Insensitive or not, that is what a requirement says. Everybody can easily find many of these on a typical online dating site.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
My guess it is that for the majority of the rest of people who put up precise restrictions it is more of a numbers game. They usually are attracted to a type of person and therefore put up parameters that give the more chances to meet a person like that.
____Answer__
LOL (That really does deserve a “lol”). The existence of a ubiquitous measurement system (Standard or Metric, you take your pick) is not an excuse for the consistent “requirement” for “average or taller” that we see.
The fact remains that they list “average or taller”. Having a standardized gauge is just a matter of convenience.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
It’s much like an age limit on a profile (ageism alert? Yes?). In a context with so many people on a site, you put up restriction that give you the best chances to meet someone with the characteristics you want, accepting the possibility to lose out on some people you might have liked regardless of a characteristic of them you’re usually not into. Otherwise, much like the guy who writes this site, you’d spend your entire time going on dates. People have jobs.
____Answer__
This only describes the mechanics of a requirement. (I believe most of us understand how a requirement works). As such it deflects from the reasons behind any given requirement. This is a way to avoid the motives behind “only wanting what one sees as a trophy in the eyes of their peers.”
Oh, and ageism? Not a valid comparison (ask and I will explain why).
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Oh, come one. Literal, much? Of course none is forcing anyone at gun point to write down anything. It’s a saying. The heat forced me to close the window, that guy’s annoyance forced me to punch him in the face. It wasn’t a try, it was a saying. Jesus.
____Answer__
Oh, Anne. One really should __admit error__ when it is pointed out. The comment that no one was being FORCED to write down a precise height minimum was in rebuttal to your comment:
“…but the structure of internet dating forces you to turn preferences that usually don’t need to be spoken (you just go with them) into written down requirements.”
There was nothing facetiously taken “literally”, nor did we mention anything about armed coercion. That wasn’t a “saying”. That was your own description of your thoughts. Please. Your argument was based on a faulty foundation. (That is literal).
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Let me rephrase: as I explained above, the context of internet dating makes it pragmatic for a person to have restrictive requirements.
On writing it down specifically. I don’t know, I don’t do internet dating, but I would think that would serve the purpose of restricting the people who write to you to those you actual want to interact with, like an age limit. I don’t date over 35, so don’t write to me if you are…
____Answer__
You are just digressing into the mechanics of a requirement again. The error was in thinking that having a standardized measuring system promotes the coalescing of a hereto-subconscious restriction. That is a quite stretch by anyone’s imagination. Really.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I’m not saying an ad that says..’you fxxking Napoleonic short guys, don’t you dare write to me, you sicken me’ is not written by a prejudiced axxhole, let’s call him heightist, if you like the neologism, I’m simply saying that a requirement alone, in the context of selecting a mate, does not equal prejudice, or insecurity.
____Answer__
No. You are misrepresenting the opposition again. The discovery is (I’ll try to be as clear as possible):
__Insecurity in one’s own body image drives the need to be seen with only that which one deems as a trophy in the eyes of their peers.__
This is in NO WAY the same thing you stated in order to tear it down.
(Lol. You’ll find all sorts of “you fxxking Napoleon” diatribes in many “debates” on this topic)
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I haven’t contradicted myself, you wrongly red it as a contradiction.
I don’t equate saying that the arts make us with peer pressure, you did that. The arts make us even before we are born, as part of history, shared symbols, a shared subconscious. We make the arts by either being artists of being what they portray.
____Answer__
This is denial in its purist form, Anne.
I quoted your EXACT words.
On one hand you say:
Anne: “We are the arts, and the arts are us”
Anne: “They portray us, while they make us”
On the other hand you say:
Anne: “What I argue against is equating art, or even entertainment, with peer pressure.”
You said “We are the arts”. That would make one the peer of the other. What? Are you going to challenge the meaning of the word “peer” now?
You said “…while THEY [the arts] MAKE us”. If they “make” us, they are indeed doing so as peers (remember, “the arts are us”.) We propagate their image. Just how is that NOT peer pressure. (You even go on to talk about how appeasing the views of one’s peers are “peer pressure” in your response).
There is NO misinterpretation of your words.
I don’t even need you to agree with this. By adamantly denying it, you’ve lost any credibility remaining.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
If you want an example on the subject on HOW IMMENSELY peer pressure and being influenced by the arts are two different things, here it is.
Peer pressure would be your friend telling you ‘No, girl, ew, don’t date that boy, he’s short’ and you not dating him even if you like him. Being influenced by the arts is not liking him yourself, and the fact of not liking him being in part due to the arts’ influence on your perception of beauty.
____Answer__
In the former one seeks the approval of one’s peer (their friend). In the latter, one seeks the approval of their peers (the masses). Yes. They are completely the same, with seeking the approval of the masses perhaps more insecure a behaviour than that of seeking the approval of a friend.
Your problem in seeing this is…?
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Not demonstrated, simply stated, by you as an opinion you called truth, because that’s how you debate. You say something you think, which may or may not have its merits, and then you call it truth.
____Answer__
Wrong.
We said:
“Lower self-esteem, body image issues and peer pressure being the main drivers are easily demonstrated. This has been done on numerous occasions on this thread. That no other factors, even the “mysterious” ones exhibit shows that other factors are relatively insignificant (if they exist at all).”
…and you can indeed find examples of these behaviours on this thread. Furthermore, one can easily find a correlation between heightism and the body image of the heightist on any given online dating site, or any forum on this topic for that matter. To dismiss this as merely supposition is just projection of how some, including yourself, present wholly unsupported conclusions, and then attempt to rebut any criticism with the usual misrepresentations.
Feel free to disagree with this, but most viewers can look at the posts here and see whose version of the “truth” is closer to reality.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Between observation and deduction, there’s something in between and that would be the individual: you. You know that ordeal with filters, plato and his cave?Check it out.
____Answer__
If you wish to malign at least keep it in context with the response. That was in response to you claiming that low self-esteem was not measurable (the wording being “expecting their valence in the equation to be at all measurable”)
If you are claiming seeing all this denial (in the form of the answers that heightists give and in how they “defend” their prejudice sometimes by claiming it is not even a prejudice because they were nice about it, etc.) is largely in the mind of the observer, I don’t think you will have a lot of support amongst the reasonable. Really. Spelunker or not.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Your power to deduct from observations is clearly very biased by your dogmatic convictions and your personal bias. I mean, you just observed and deduced that I was the alter-ego of some guy. That alone kind of says something to me.
____Answer__
No. I merely suggested that the probability of collusion was high. Furthermore, considering that you have included response to items directed at this “alter-ego” (and vice-versa), the case is building. (Dude… yes)
As we have provided reference to evidence as well as links when possible to support our claims, your accusations of dogmatism are rather unsupported. But, you can believe what you wish in spite of the record (say, isn’t that essentially dogmatism?)
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Honestly, dude, look up the meaning of words before confusing distinguishing between a thing and another with a contradiction.
I have explained this to you already, peer pressure is different from having society playing a part in constructing your perception of beauty… … necessarily has something to do with the society you live, because you don’t happen in a vacuum.
____Answer__
LOL. Come on. A parroting attack has to actually have an element of truth in it to be effective.
If not all it shows is a bruised ego. Really, can you not see that peer pressure, whether in the form of wanting to look right in the view of your friends, or in the view of the masses, IS peer pressure?
Fear of not “conforming” is no different. In one case it your perception of the eyes of your friends. In the other it is your perception of the eyes of society at large. Really Anne. You contradicted yourself and denying it is only showing that you cannot accept it. That’s even more than I had to prove.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Please, please, try to have more of an open mind when reading a point and not being so literal.
Simply by considering asymmetry, its very opposite, instead of symmetry the concept applies, I though you were able to get there on your own. Asymmetry is an involuntary immutable trait having no bearing on a person’s direct abilities that (on average, many times, there are exceptions of course. Just like there are for shortness) often excludes people who have it from being considered conventionally attractive by society at large.
And just like shortness, the more present the trait of a asymmetry is, the less conventionally attractive the person is going to be found.
____Answer__
Do you even TRY to understand the context of what you are trying to argue? Retaliating with a parroting attack tells a lot. But most of all, you MISUNDERSTOOD the point that the definition of beauty will unlikely EXCLUDE a trait that has is innate, immutable and really has no bearing on a persons ability EVEN IF 250 other measures of beauty had no reliance on this aspect at all. You can re-read the original criticism. I’m not going to print it again for you.
On Asymmetry:
Symmetry in the body does have some bearing on the underlying health of the body. Bisymmetry is natural, and a significant variance from it does indicate a potential underlying issue. Furthermore, it can be inherited, whereas adult height is largely a product of nutrients in early childhood development (and therefore not “inherited”).
So it’s not really the same as adult height.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Again, not shown. Argued, by you and your very personal definition of prejudice that has nothing to do with the one in the vocabulary.
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Really? The definition of “prejudice” as we have described it is not the one in the vocabulary? Please I challenge you (again) to point all of us to a definition that includes the conditions that you attached to it.
Look it up. I would like to see you “support” this claim. In fact, if you CANNOT support this, you have essentially, lost every last bit of credibility in your “argument”.
Really, Anne. Your position is lost. Look up the definition of “Prejudice”. (Unless of course, you will accuse me of altering the perceptions of everyone that can get a hold of a dictionary.)
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Attaching a failing grade to a characteristic, with regards to selecting a mate it is something we all do. We do it with the person’s age, gender, looks and many other things. I’m sure you do it too.
It’s not prejudice… … simply something I don’t like
____Answer__
Trying the “Tu quoque” fallacy again?
You are just trying to ignore the fundamental (there’s that word again!) difference between rational and irrational decisions. You can choose to base a decision on whatever you like (be it the position of stars, tea leaves, whatever). However, people will make there OWN decision on the merits of your decision process.
If one bases a decision on an innate, immutable and functionally innocuous trait, then people will judge them on it. That’s all.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The strawman returns. Strawmen everywhere. On sale.
You were the one who started talking about the relativity of ethics, my answer to that was basically a long way to say ‘duh’…
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Yes. You should stop selling straw men. When you do, others won’t be mentioning it.
No. You expanded into it by concentrating on your accountability to only yourself as opposed to duty in regards to voting, etc. We aptly focused the attention to the how ethics, legality and legitimacy were all tied to the observer (you or someone observing your actions). This is just another deflection.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
What I was doing before was arguing for the fact that I can make my own decisions and judge them ethical, but I was arguing for those decisions appearing like those of a reasonable, ethical and self-aware individual, but you haven’t replied to that with other than ‘Well, that’s YOUR perception of rational and ethical’. Of course it’s mine, I’m writing.
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Everybody is aware that YOUR decision is YOUR decision. You are couching it out of context (as usual). We reminded you of the importance that what you are having issues with is that others will judge you based on your actions, AND based on their perception of rationality, ethics and legitimacy.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I’m disagreeing exactly with the fact that the nature is the same. I wasn’t talking about application, I was talking about nature.
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Really. OK. So you now clearly state that it is the NATURE and not the APPLICATION. Well, let’s have a look at your original disagreement…
…“I disagree. The entire economies and social structures of western societies were based on gender discrimination. And somewhat, albeit in different manners throughout 1st and 2nd world countries, on ethnic discrimination.
These discriminations have been the very base of our families, workforce and economic systems. It doesn’t all come down to some petty insecurities: there have been structural, not super structural, forces keeping these systems of slavery (women were slaves of sorts) going for centuries.”…
That looks a lot more like expounding on the APPLICATION of the prejudice of gender and ethnic bias. So, no, you digressed into the application when you couldn’t refute that the NATURE of prejudice (be it on height, gender or ethnicity) is really the same.
Q.E.D.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Stop seeing ploys to deflect from god knows what every time you don’t understand something well. It’s ok to misinterpret, not understand someone else, but don’t jump to the paranoiaohmygodaploy every time you do. Wait a second a consider the option that the other person was actually addressing that specific point and you didn’t get the way in which they were doing it.
____Answer__
Unfortunately, your accusation has no merit. We definitely back up our claims with reference and explanation (we just did it above). The ploys are called out as they are seen. When you have applied a disambiguation to promote a rebuttal, do you expect the opposition to NOT call out the fallacy? Come on.
If you wish to discuss each point, as it is IN CONTEXT, I have no problem with it.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The nature of gender prejudice is not based on the insecurity of the perpetrator, it is based on a social force of conservation apt at keeping or regaining an economic, and therefore social, privilege. So is class discrimination and so is discrimination against blacks in America. Structural is not only the application, structural is the nature, the nature to try and hold on to the means of production.
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Probably the ONLY thing you have written so far that has any merit. Gender bias has roots in control, and those enjoying that control are not likely to easily surrender it.
The trouble lays in the having to face a world where the status quo is lost (since a more equitable world would push the favour towards women). Where the nature parallels heightism is in how the irrationality of having the bias is defended by the very same ridicule, self-righteousness in promotion and refusal to accept that the behaviour, at its core, is irrational. The insecurity lays in having to accept that only an artificial system is creating an apparent superiority.
Ethnic intolerance has the same power inequity but an additional component of relying on archaic xenophobia. It too shares the same nature of how it manifests within the beholder of how people will refuse to examine its roots, and resort to any number of tactics to avoid having anyone discuss it. Much of the insecurity is about the having to accept that one isn’t superior merely by carrying particular local adaptations.
Structurally, they are different. No one is arguing that. However, the nature of irrational prejudice (how it lives through ignorance, and defends itself through denial and hostility) is “fundamentally” the same.
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Anne says:
December 20, 2012 at 8:48 pm
And please, close down that Wikipedia page on fallacies.
____Answer__
I, like many, usually don’t have to refer to Wikipedia to correctly identify fallacies. A lot of people tend to resort to fallacies when they can’t successfully argue their case. You get pretty familiar with them. However, if you wish for them to not be pointed out, stop applying them. That is COMPLETELY within your control.
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@everybody
This entire argument for the validity of Heightism in this case rests on a faulty definition of “prejudice”. All interested parties can look up the definition of “prejudice” for him or herself. Furthermore, all parties are invited to inspect the thread and come their own conclusions as to where and who have applied fallacies to support their claims.
A poor image of self, driving low self-esteem can and will cause some women to restrict potential mates to ONLY what they perceive as a trophy in the eyes of their peers.
@Anne:
I invite you to argue any point without resorting to misrepresenting your opposition, taking comments out of context, and any other number of fallacies exhibited. We have taken much effort in supporting our discovery of these.
The definitions of “prejudice” and now the verb “judge” are easily sourced and the application of both are sound and accurate in our argument. Your suggestion that they are not is completely vapid. Your position is lost (not merely an opinion, as supporting reasoning has always been cheerfully provided.) This is no longer in question.
Should you wish to continue to purposely ignore the errors in your foundation, it is entirely in spite of our efforts to respectfully point them out. The penalty is your credibility in the eyes of your peers here. This is entire out of my control, and completely within yours.
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Please!!!!! I’m so sick of the comparison that a guy shouldn’t complain about a woman’s weight if she can’t complain about his height! BULLSHIT! Weight in almost all circumstances can be controlled!!!!!! It’s called f*****g exercise and diet. Nothing NOTHING can control a guys height! End of argument!
True, but it’s not as if she can change her weight overnight. And the fact that she feasibly COULD change it doesn’t make the situation better NOW – when she spends two hours getting ready, putting on makeup and her nicest clothes, and goes to a bar with her two skinny roommates, only to notice that the guys are all making a beeline for them and not even SEEING her. It’s a horrible feeling, one that I’m sure a lot of shorter guys are aware of too. And people say that weight can be controlled – in some cases, it really can’t due to genetics. And in some cases, people have emotional issues that prevent them from losing weight and keeping it off – look at the statistics…only 20% of people who lose a substantial amount of weight actually maintain the weight loss.
___Summary___:
@Anna
It is not news to anyone that certain things take time and effort. It is also not news that some things can NEVER be changed. Saying that being marginalized in each case is an equal experience is dismissive of how frustrating being unable to change a trait is really like.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 4:18 am
True, but it’s not as if she can change her weight overnight. And the fact that she feasibly COULD change it doesn’t make the situation better NOW – when she spends two hours getting ready, putting on makeup and her nicest clothes, and goes to a bar with her two skinny roommates, only to notice that the guys are all making a beeline for them and not even SEEING her.
___Answer__:
It is unlikely that said female only discovered that moment that her closer to ideal body fat ratio friends would get most of the attention in that scenario. The female’s situation may not be better “now”, but it doesn’t take much acumen to realize that it could get far better in 6 months to a year (longer, if it is more extreme… but then it took longer to get to that extreme in the first place).
Again, for the shorter guy, his height isn’t changing anytime soon.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 4:18 am
It’s a horrible feeling, one that I’m sure a lot of shorter guys are aware of too. And people say that weight can be controlled – in some cases, it really can’t due to genetics. And in some cases, people have emotional issues that prevent them from losing weight and keeping it off – look at the statistics…only 20% of people who lose a substantial amount of weight actually maintain the weight loss.
___Answer__:
All guys encounter that same feeling of being out-competed, but if its something you can do something about, you make the decision to take action, or you live with it.
Shorter guys facing height prejudice?.. well that’s the same as facing racial prejudice. That’s a feeling that overweight women “think” they have experienced. Enduring the haughty attitude that you are somehow inferior because of a trait you cannot change, and really has no bearing on who you are as a person will never be the same as a trait you CAN change.
In fact, it is somewhat similar a slight to have it considered the same. Imagine if you didn’t get a job because you were a woman, and some guy comes up to you and says, “I know how you feel, I wasn’t selected because I haven’t removed that pile of dirt in my backyard. It will take months with a shovel to do it, and it’s a lot of effort. Besides the dirt keeps coming in if I don’t repair the retaining wall. Only 20 out of 100 guys ever keep their backyard clean but it’s the same as being a woman. I’ll just find an employer that doesn’t care. You should just do the same”.
You can’t change the trait you were being marginalized for. He can. How does it feel to be considered the same?
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___Summary___:
@Anna
It is not news to anyone that certain things take time and effort. It is also not news that some things can NEVER be changed. Saying that being marginalized in each case is an equal experience is dismissive of how frustrating being unable to change a trait is really like.
Wow, quite a few comments here.
I’m a 15 year old guy in high school, grade 11 at the moment. Spring exams are coming up, and I still manage to get myself distracted by looking things up on the whole short stigma. (Jeez, this procrastination is gonna kill me :P)
Maybe nobody will read this, but I really want to share my thoughts on the subject, and offer my own message to short guys.
I’m an astounding 5’2 (doctor tells me I’m 5’3, but that old biddy can barely see with her glasses on, so I’m just going with what I measured). It sort of makes me chuckle when I see guys who are 5’5 ish to 5’10 complain about being short. “Try 5’2 buddy!” is what I say to you (I kid). To boot, I’ve got the face of caveman and a lot of body hair. Heck, I even have this problem where my left eye lid flips up and down when I chew (Marcus-Gunn jaw winking. It’s not serious at all, but it makes you very-self conscious. Look it up if you’re curious). It shouldn’t be a surprise, but I get and almost no attention from girls, aside from the few who ask me for homework help every now and again. Even then, there’s no “hi” or “bye”, lol. (maybe the girls at my school are all just meaners. Silly meaners.) Being a teenage guy and all, it really hurts. Actually, that is a complete understatement. No amount of explaining will able to explain to you the mental torture of being a short man in this society. Everywhere I go, everyone is taller than me; being shorter than most guys is one thing but being shorter than most girls is just plain emasculating. Anytime I see an attractive girl, I know right away they are not in the least bit interested in me, and in fact would prefer not be in anywhere in my vicinity (I’m speaking about most girls here. No doubt there are some that don’t mind shorter men, but that is a very small minority that’s for sure). It’s just this feeling of knowing you are undesirable and absolutely nothing you do can change it. Girls just completely ignore me. It’s like I don’t exist to them. And it’s not like they’re all Amazon women, quite a few are near my height, or are shorter, but still, nothing. This way it is really hard talking to women because you don’t know them at all. You have no idea how to approach them, because they just don’t want anything to do with you. This painful feeling of knowing you are the equivalent of some sort of hideous, deformed monster (not as exaggerated as it may sound) and that you will never find love or happiness all thanks to one measly feature -yeah, not the greatest feeling in the world. Long story short, being short has ruined my life thus far.
Some people are comparing short men to women who are overweight. I don’t think that a fair judgement, because frankly (I know that this has been discussed in previous comments) it can be dealt with by maintaining a healthier diet. No doubt it’s difficult, but it’s nowhere near impossible.
The wort part of it is, I honestly feel that I’m a really friendly, smart, funny and creative guy, not toot my own horn or anything. I feel the same still, but after I started realizing how much this stupid “height” actually mattered, I started to sink into depression. My grades were always really high, like high nineties, but they’ve been dropping and spiraling slowly downwards, eating away at myself confidence reducing it to a small pile of rubble.
I complain to my friends, and they say things like “I feel bad for you, man”. But honestly, I know they don’t really care. Even online, the only comments I see on the topic is “no one cares that you’re short, suck it up.” And it’s true, no one does. No one -especially no girl- has the time to be feeling bad for short men, when their DNA has hard wired them to pursue tall men. I mean, to those short guys who think girls are stupid for discriminating us just because of our height, I totally know what you mean. I still find it unfair even women shorter than me require their men to be 5’10 and up or something. But this is not really their fault. It’s just their animal instincts, just like men like smaller women in general, or certain features like “large breasts” and all that jazz. What I find, for men at least, those preferences have a lot of leeway. Women tend to me much more harsh about who they’re with, I guess. And that seems only natural, because of the undeniably hard labor of having a child they have to go through, they want to at least be satisfied with their mate. So whether you choose to accept it or not, tall men will always have the advantage over you in dating and just about everything else, since that’s just what women like. You’ve probably been told this many times before but the truth is the truth: life is unfair. The truth is hard to take, but it is what it is. Humans are cruel beings.
So you’re left with two choices:
1. commit suicide, drop out of the race.
2. suck it up.
Harsh? Yes. So is the world. There is no nice way to phrase it really. The best option you have to get over it.
Keep in mind, you don’t have it the worse off. You probably own a computer if you are reading this, and I assume you have money and a roof over your head. You could have been disabled (though some women would call being short a disability) I know that line may seem cliche, but as soon as you learn to accept you are lucky enough to have these things, then you’re on your way to getting over it.
Women who judge you for being short? Screw them. Just screw them (when I say “screw, I mean ‘forget them’. lol. “). Screw thinking so much about women. I was obsessed with this girl, and I couldn’t stop thinking about her, but she barely acknowledged me, without a doubt because of shortness and ugliness. Why suffer so much pain for someone who barely knows you exist? That said, I have absolutely nothing against women at all, so please don’t misinterpret this. Do not be bitter towards women about it in the least bit. Still be a gentlemen. My reasoning is, stop focusing so much on the fact that you are short and letting that fact ruin your life. Don’t let the fact women wish you didn’t exist ruin your life, because, well, they seem to have no remorse about it, so why should you have to suffer?
This is all much easier said than done. It’s hard forgetting about a girl you like. I still haven’t really gotten over it. Every time I see her I’m still find myself unable to resist thoughts of being with her.It will take you a while, but you’ve got to believe in yourself, which is hard with what is most likely to be a beaten-down self-confidence. Just teach yourself that “they don’t care about me, so why should care about them?” No matter how attractive they are, treat them as you should any other human being: with respect and dignity.
As men ourselves, we are also hard wired to be attracted to women (usually), so it’s hard going against this. It’s hard to convince yourself that you might have to live without the companionship of a women. But you have to at least try, or you’ll never stop feeling bad about yourself.
Again, sorry if this sounds a bit harsh to you. i’ll try and be a little nicer about it.
The first step in getting over being short is to become awesome. If you already are awesome, become ever more awe-inducing. Instead of trying to appeal everyone else though, do it to appeal yourself.
Me personally, I love music. I play the guitar, with all my soul. I love writing music and songs recording it and preforming with my band. It’s something that truly makes me happy. I used to write lyrics and stuff and keep it to myself, but I decided I have to stop being shy about singing, so I started to sing for our band as well. We have a school performance coming up, and I’m nervous as hell but it makes me feel great so, who cares what anyone else thinks (though I still need A LOT of practice xD)? I also decided to learn to play piano and have made decent progress by myself learning off of the internet. Hopefully lessons will start soon. In the future, I hope to try out violin.
School and grades are another thing. I have decided to really buckle down on my school work. I’m making it the focus of my life to boost up and maintain my grades. Not just good grades, the best grades. Find joy in studying and take interest into what you are doing (again, easier said then done, but have the WILLPOWER!!!). It will all pay off when I see that 97% on the exam papers and in the long run when I’m doing my dream job.
I love soccer, and I’m not to shabby at it either, so I started to put more soul into it. Some sport are not exactly fit for short people, like basketball, but don’t let that stop you. Prove those bastards wrong. I also decided to start taekwondo, because martial arts are great for self-disciplining and -let’s be honest- are just plain cool.
I was also an avid reader, which is something I haven’t really done much lately. I decided to pick up on it, and it’s been wonderful. I don’t limit myself to just novels. I love manga, so I read as much One Piece as I get the chance to, and I love thriller suspense stuff, so Naoki Urasawa all the way! Reading is great because it helps you takes you into a new world, where you can forget your problems. Negative thoughts always come to me before bed, so I always try to read then.
I also love strategy games, so I’ve been playing some more of competitive games such as Starcraft and League of Legends. Of course, keep video games to moderation. Do not make the mistake of letting them take over your life. Be a casual gamer, but when it comes to game time, it okay to become a monster :P Be awesome and always go doran’s blade first when playing AD carry (for those you who get the metaphor). I’ve even started up playing some casual chess games once in a while. I hope to become undefeatable.
So you probably skipped over that part, since you probably don’t give a damn about my life. Well, guess what? I don’t care. This my definition of awesome and I’m having a blast. Maybe your’s is different. What matter is I’m trying to take back control of my life, and feel good again. I’m doing this not to impress the ladies (btw, playing guitar doesn’t get you girls, I would know. Only works iif you’re good looking in the first place.) but because it’s what makes me happy.
I’m still in the process of getting over being short. In fact we may never fully get over it. To some people it may seem I’m making a big deal about nothing, and I guess I am. But being short has made me realize I’ve got stop focusing on what other people think or say in some cases; take it into consideration, but don’t let it get you down. Go and pursue the things you enjoy, be happy in what ways you can. I hope this can help someone out.
Peace,
ofawanderingmind
Grade 11 eh? Pretty insightful for a high schooler. Actually, I felt quite motivated from reading this. I’m 5’6 myself, but trust me, even at 5’6 women aren’t interested; I can imagine how 5’2 must be. I feel for you man.
You’ve got your life ahead of ya, buddy, so don’t be disheartened. This is really the only post on here with something positive, not just complainers. Also, you seem like a cool guy :P
Rock on man.
En sex partner er det samme som en knullevenn eller en venn med fordeler.
Jeg har mine forestillinger om hva jeg leter etter og det er modne damer som er åpen for Swinger.
Ikke tabu, bare veldig, veldig fremmed – og til dels fullstendig usexy.
Uh… maybe read the typos post. I didn’t understand a word of that.
I’m 5’9″ and my boyfriend is about 5’7″. The height difference doesn’t bother me and I find it even more amusing when I am wearing heels and towering over him. He likes it because he can just shove his face in my boobs LOL!
One time, I messaged a guy on PlentyofFish who was 5’5″ and he told me it would work between us because I was too tall for him. So, you know, it goes both ways, but I agree that short men get the brunt of it.
I’m 5’9″, close to 5’10”, and my boyfriend is about 5’7″. The height difference never bothered us much, and he especially loves when I wear heels and tower over him because he just plants his face in my boobs haha!
I once messaged a guy on PlentyofFish who was 5’5″ and he told me he it wouldn’t work between us because I was too tall for him, so it goes both ways, but I agree short men bear the brunt of it :/
I am 5’7″. I am 51. I do not lie about my height, weight or age. I will date a any woman as long as she is not severely obese. I look for women close to my age about 10 years up or down. (I can spot the age liars there are lots of those) I would date a woman who was taller than me if she was the right one.
Approximately 2/3′s of women are not interested in me for height alone. I take the height thing very seriously and do not ask women if the height requirement is taller than I am.
I have seen a woman who is 5’2″ who wanted to date a man 5′ 11″. By the mere choice of height she would rather date George W Bush (5′ 10″) over Mozart (5’2″). Ted Bundy (6’0″) over Picasso (5’0″). Are you still trying to breed a race of “Ubermenchen”? You are freakin’ 50! It is too late for that.
I saw a blind woman ***BLIND*** who wanted a tall guy.
The kicker on that one woman’s site was “good things come in small packages”. I wanted to email her and say “Hi, I am 5’11″ and I have a small package”.I guess good things come in small packages except men.
Keep your shallow opinions you have the right to them, (she’s doing me a favor, she’s doing me a favor) but don’t complain if there are no good men out there. Just admit you have lost the race for the tall dudes. Don’t complain if they are not very nice, since they do not have to be since women will pick Ted Bundy over Mozart for height alone. If you pick Ted Bundy over Mozart, you deserve him.
Good day! I could have sworn I’ve been to this blog before but after checking through some of the post I realized it’s new to me.
Anyhow, I’m definitely glad I found it and I’ll
be book-marking and checking back frequently!
I work in a mall, and the preference for tall guys stare me in the face ALL DAY LONG! I’m not saying that I haven’t seen a few guys my height with girlfriends, but the overwhelming majority of women I see are with tall men. I still try to put a smile on my face most of the time, but on the inside it fucking hurts so much!
I know that deep down I’m deserving of someone awesome, but I can’t ever seem to meet normal women. I end up meeting all the phycos with more issues than the time magazine. I’m not a virgin, but i want actual companionship. That is nearly impossible for a nerd to begin with. I try so hard, but women just try to act like I don’t exist. I have a such a great personality that it’s not easy to ignore me. I learned to go after women. It doesn’t help because it’s so difficult to meet women outside of work.
I’m not successful in life. I make 8 dollars/hour. I work. I’m not some guy to mooches off people. I’ve always been a hard worker. Isn’t that enough? I’m fit and decent looking, I’m interesting to talk to and Intelligent, witty and pretty funny. I want to be the guy that turns you on; not just be your friend when you need someone to talk to.
I haven’t given up, but I feel like I’m in a losing battle. I don’t want to literally become a god just for some woman to want me. I feel like I shouldn’t have to be rich or run the world. I’m just a regular guy(in most ways). I’d kill to go to another country to meet women. It would probably be the most amazing experience EVER. One of my deepest wishes is to meet people from other cultures. The USA isn’t the world! I’m sure there are lots of people around the world that would LOVE to meet someone like myself. One day…..Just…..one day.
Pretty! This was an incredibly wonderful article. Thanks for supplying this information.
The only thing that bugs me is that women claim to be morally superior to men, when it is obvious men have better morals than women, solely based on this height issue. As a test, put up an online dating profile of a women with AIDS and a guy with 160 cm. The woman will get MORE messages! It’s amazing. Women are actually more shallow than men. This is a huge secret that I just discovered. Hollywood always claims men are more shallow, but it’s not true. It’s like I’ve been living in the matrix all along.
Being willing to date less selectively does not equal better morals.
As for the woman with AIDS getting more messages, did you factor in that it’s USUALLY men messaging women on those sites anyway? I have an okcupid profile, and never once have I messaged a guy who didn’t message me first. Guys are always the pursuers, that’s just the culture we live in.
I don’t think women are morally superior to men. But I do think, when it comes to dating, that men are more shallow about appearance, while women are more shallow about money. Me personally, I make good money on my own and plan to always, so I couldn’t care less about how much money a guy makes. But many women consider being rich as a big part of their checklist for the perfect guy. I used to be overweight and got NO attention from men whatsoever, except for the men who specifically preferred overweight women. When the pounds came off, the guys suddenly started coming around, which kind of infuriated me because except for physical appearance, I was the EXACT same person. Basically, with their actions, they showed that I could be a brain dead bimbo and it would make no difference to these guys because all they cared about was my appearance.
Women who would write off a guy solely due to height are shallow and not even worth getting mad over. Do you really want to be with someone like that anyway?
___Summary___:
@Anna
The feigned morality of women is not demonstrated by less stringent mate selection. It is still in the occurrence and irreverent defence of a prejudice while maintaining an attitude of higher ethics.
Height prejudice is still associated with lower self-esteem in the beholder. Many so afflicted only want what they view will be a trophy in the eyes of their peers.
A trait that cannot be changed will never be the same as one that can (even if not easy to change).
Practicing rationalization to avoid a social tort does nothing towards progressing towards a more just society. All it does is reinforce a state of denial.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
Being willing to date less selectively does not equal better morals.
___Answer__:
No, that’s a convenient deflection. It isn’t the level of selectivity that was the functional definer. It’s the remarkable prevalence of application of a immutable and non-directly consequential trait that differentiates the overall morality of the genders.
There is no parallel in men to “heightism”. In general, men have an affinity for women who tend to their physical, mental and spiritual well-being. All of this is within the grasp of the typical candidate. Even extreme cases of less-desirable values in physical and mental health can be treated with modern science. Spiritual is tied to the first two.
The prejudice (yes, prejudice) based on the height of an individual literally only presented by women.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
As for the woman with AIDS getting more messages, did you factor in that it’s USUALLY men messaging women on those sites anyway? I have an okcupid profile, and never once have I messaged a guy who didn’t message me first. Guys are always the pursuers, that’s just the culture we live in.
___Answer__:
The experiment that QE2 refers to has been done on numerous occasions (with slight variations online). All do take into account the nature of the game. The findings are always that women will be interested (and do message) men, but once the quoted height is below a remarkably consistent threshold, the messages hover near zero.
Alternately, the woman with communicable and unsavoury health problem (AIDS in this case) continued to receive messages even if she was of average “looks”. Men are apparently able to overlook many conditions if they felt it didn’t reflect negatively enough on the character of the person. AIDS may have been extreme, but it was necessary to ensure some level of separation from other factors.
Incidentally, what YOU or I personally act in an online environment doesn’t necessarily reflect the normal situation. Years ago, when I had a profile online, I consistently received unsolicited messages from women. I’m not a soap opera hunk, but I also received a lot less attention than I would in the real world. Guys aren’t always the pursuer. I pursued my current girlfriend, but some previous ones pursued me. But, that’s just me, right?
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
I don’t think women are morally superior to men. But I do think, when it comes to dating, that men are more shallow about appearance, while women are more shallow about money.
___Answer__:
It’s not that they are morally superior, it’s that many act as if the gender is in general.
Really. Think about it. Many women think that men are “more shallow” when it comes to mate selection because of their affinity for good appearance (as you just noted). This isn’t the case when one considers that the “appearance” is practically always based on traits that are wholly in the control of the individual. There is rarely “restriction” based on immutable traits (note: age is a special condition that applies to both genders).
Having a “height restriction” (and a noticeable number of women have this online) is based on a trait that is NOT in the control of the individual. Add to that the way many women will defend this prejudice. They will apply mythology (“it’s a natural instinct”, “men are as shallow”, “My father was tall”, etc…). They will apply non sequitur logic (“It is the same as not wanting high body-fat content”, “I like to wear heels”, etc…). Once debunked, they will often resort to bullying and name-calling.
Yet, many women feel they occupy some sort of moral high ground.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
Me personally, I make good money on my own and plan to always, so I couldn’t care less about how much money a guy makes. But many women consider being rich as a big part of their checklist for the perfect guy.
___Answer__:
In a society where having money greatly increases access to many things as well as a better life style, this affinity isn’t that unfounded. There doesn’t seem to be a situation where there is a threshold as clearly defined as 6 ft is to height either.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
I used to be overweight and got NO attention from men whatsoever, except for the men who specifically preferred overweight women. When the pounds came off, the guys suddenly started coming around, which kind of infuriated me because except for physical appearance, I was the EXACT same person.
Answer:
As much as it suits your argument, the reality is that you were not the exact same person. When you transformed yourself into someone within the range of what is considered a health amount of body fat, you were someone who paid attention to their physical well being. Is a person who does not maintain good dental hygiene (even if no cavities occur) the “exact same person”?
No. It is what you do and what you achieve that defines you.
That is why a “height” criterion is ridiculous. You neither did anything towards it nor is it an achievement.
By your argument, having your clothes scattered about a room is the same as the having them neatly pressed and hung in a closet. After all, it’s all the same outfits. It takes effort to keep them orderly and wrinkle free on a daily basis… but it’s all the same… not.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
Basically, with their actions, they showed that I could be a brain dead bimbo and it would make no difference to these guys because all they cared about was my appearance.
___Answer__:
It might not make any difference as far as a initiating contact (which is all any guy short or tall really asks for) but all the other achievements that make the sum of you matter if something is going to become of it.
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Anna says:
June 16, 2013 at 3:50 am
Women who would write off a guy solely due to height are shallow and not even worth getting mad over. Do you really want to be with someone like that anyway?
___Answer__:
Again, this is merely rationalization. Prejudice like heightism is something that all society should not tolerate. Just ignoring does not make it go away. Using this logic is no different than casting a blind eye upon any social injustice. Imagine if this was the preferred course of action for any movement in gender equality. Why would you want to be in a country that doesn’t give you the vote anyways?
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___Summary___:
@Anna
The feigned morality of women is not demonstrated by less stringent mate selection. It is still in the occurrence and irreverent defense of a prejudice while maintaining an attitude of higher ethics.
Height prejudice is still associated with lower self-esteem in the beholder. Many so afflicted only want what they view will be a trophy in the eyes of their peers.
A trait that cannot be changed will never be the same as one that can (even if not easy to change).
Practicing rationalization to avoid a social tort does nothing towards progressing towards a more just society. All it does is reinforce a state of denial.
I am extremely impressed with your writing abilities as smartly as with the structure on your blog. Is that this a paid subject matter or did you customize it your self? Either way keep up the nice quality writing, it’s uncommon to peer a nice blog like this one these days..
This was such a good convo sight until this bossy bitch started posting his “informative” rants that are full of lies & his own insane ideology! Whoever you are man with 300 page long nonsense your issues are deeper than your height. You close down conversation, debate & thought. You must be
short (which is fine but so overreacted to BY YOU) , an asshole & a republican. Please feel
free to dissect my comment with cruelty & your own propaganda. Maybe you don’t watch this comment section anymore since you overtook it.
lolz. Whatever. you got pwned by him and you just can’t let it go.
If you’re a short guy, like other rules in life, you learn how to be successful by listening to other guys like you who are successful. AtEyeLevel.co is the largest online community for men below average height. The site focuses on strategies for success both socially and in the workplace, fashion, relationships, height discrimination, self-defense, entertainment, and more. All are welcome and encouraged to participate.
The brutal truth is that small guys just aren’t initially that attractive to women. Although they can eventually win them over with good personalities, it’s the taller men that women instinctively go for. A man that’s under 5’8 (average male height) is going to struggle to find a partner, compared to a man above that height. Those men fortunate enough to be considered ‘tall’ (eg 6’1 – 6’5 range) are most successful with the opposite sex and studies have been done that confirm this.
Tall men on average produce more children, get better paid jobs and attract more sexual partners than small men.
The solution for short men with online dating is…don’t. Just don’t do it. The odds are stacked against you and you’ll just end up feeling undervaluaed because of the blatant bias against us. So don’t do it. Say F* it and look for love in real life. Leave the online dating world to the realm of the shallow people. That’s what I’m doing and I’m much happier for it.
@ Becky. I’m calling BS on your so-called studies that say that tall men on average produce more chilren, have better paying jobs and attract more sexual partners than small men. Proof please.
@ mgm531 There’s loads of proof! Ever heard of Google? Here are just some of the articles I found:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200310/tall-people-get-paid-more
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/size-height-matters-women-study-article-1.1611048
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1038531.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2192966.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5887567/Tall-men-earn-more-than-shorter-
colleagues-research-claims..html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201306/why-women-want-tall-men
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17022902.500-looking-down-on-love.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-45118/Why-tall-men-children.html
One plus point for small men is I found a study that says they live longer than tall men:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2625870/Short-men-live-longer-genes-Those-5ft-2in-longest-lives-study-says.html
@ Becky. Well then I guess I must be bucking the trend then. I’ve had a very rewarding career and I can honestly say I’ve never had a hiring manager say ‘you’re the perfect candidate, too bad you’re short’. Knowledge and experience trumps height every time. And despite the short comings, so to speak, of my height I did manage to marry and produce a beautiful daughter. Blond, blue eyes and very smart. She is now 11 and only a few inches shorter than me. Won’t be much longer before she’s taller than me. I could not be prouder or more happy to have her. So a short man with a successful career and a beautiful child. Imagine that.
Of course there are exceptions and I hope no small men reading this think they are doomed in love, careers and life in general. The findings of the studies Becky posted did not surprise me though; people are hardwired to view taller men as more authoritative and/or more attractive. It’s a completely subconscious thing and obviously no employer is going to tell you that your lack of height makes you unsuitable for a job, but on some level it may play a part.
I used to always date tall (6ft + men) until I realised how unfair I was being by ruling out the majority of the male population because they didn’t meet my height requirements. My current bf is only 5’9 but we’ve been dating for nearly 18 months and I’m quite content with him.
I’m impressed, I have to admit. Seldom do I encounter a blog that’s equally educative and entertaining, and without a
doubt, you’ve hit the nail on the head. The issue is something which too few people are speaking intelligently
about. I am very happy that I stumbled across this during my
search for something concerning this.
a short person buying “pumps” is just as pathetic as a woman getting breast augmentation or push up bras, wearing a ton of makeup, fake nails, fake hair, fake nails, etc. What horrid advice to give. If you can’t find the reason why you SHOULD be confident as you are then you really have no business trying to involve yourself in anthers life…being THAT insecure will ruin the relationship…especially the instant your FAKENESS comes off. I recall the earthquake episode of Fresh Prince, I would react the same and expect a chick to react the same if the roles were flipped (she took out colored contacts, nails, hair, pump shoes, etc…Will response “DAMN is ANYTHING on you REAL? WHO ARE YOU…or something like that). BE YOURSELF if you want someone to like YOU…otherwise is it NOT you they like but some fake person…are you gonna sleep in all that fake stuff, wear it 24/7, no that’s why it’s fake. If you do fake out 24/7 you need serious counseling. Ignore this columns advice on faking yourself up. I do have a pair of boots I wear when I ride my motorcycle that give me a little height (1/2″) but I bought them for road safety and ankle support (to pass your mc license you HAVE to have such boots) not to up my size. I would only wear them on a date if we were going riding…not just cause they make me look 5 6 instead of 5 5. You don’t like I’m 5’5” tall? Then you aren’t worthy of my time, run along bitch. Nothing is wrong with me, something is wrong with you…that’s the mentality you have to have. If you want to think being a bit shorter than average is a sin/wrong then yeah you do have a serious problem, get pro help…cause there isn’t one thing wrong with it. If you know people who think it’s odd/weird to be that height stop hanging around them, their opinions are erroneous and not worthy of vibrating the air around you.
Wow I’m truly 5’8″ but these comments may have convinced me that I too have to lie about my height. Lord knows I don’t want to be grouped in with the lying, sub-5’8″ freaks out there.
I’m a fairly short guy. I can understand what this is all about. Funny thing… women using online dating services almost invariably have a very swollen sense of desirability. I’ve run into enough profiles that exclaim in all-caps with copious amounts of exclamation points that they don’t like short men, so stop trying to talk to me, ya stubborn fellas. That and an embarrassingly high amount of other demands. It’s because women get “approached” by dozens of real winners every day. They feel like they have the pick of the litter, and online, they do. I’ll tell you something: I’ve been shot down quickly many times online, but almost never face to face or even over the phone–like when I turned an incoming wrong number call into a steamy month-long affair. Online dating just makes everything too easy. Or maybe the right word is cheap. Think about it: It’s a place of no consequence where people sign on with the predetermined purpose of meeting someone to date. Cheap. So if, like me, you get bored and want to kill some time with it, maybe you’ll meet someone. Don’t hold your breathe and don’t think anyone’s opinion on any of those services is at all reflective of reality. Do your real work in the physical world. Trust me.
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male.
One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day. And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young? I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor. And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination) So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate. There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Here is anther on how women who found the Mr. Average (Beta Males) were worth nothing in their 20’s and now that these women are in their 30’s can’t buy a date, even from the Beta Males
Why women lose in the dating game
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
During their 20s, women compete for the most highly desirable men, the Mr Bigs. Many will readily share a bed with the sporty, attractive, confident men, while ordinary men miss out. As Whiskey puts it at whiskeysplace.wordpress.com: ”Joe Average Beta Male is about as desirable to women as a cold bowl of oatmeal.”
”I can’t believe how many men my age are only interested in younger women,” wails Gail, a 34-year-old advertising executive as she describes her first search through men’s profiles on the RSVP internet dating site. She is shocked to find many mid-30s men have set up their profiles to refuse mail from women their own age.
Talking to many women like her, it’s intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren’t ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ”intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind”. She acknowledged ”there was no good reason to end things”, yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She’s is now 39 and facing grim choices.